Interview with Dr. Harry D. Cohen, Author of "Be the Sun, Not the Salt"

Dr. Harry Cohen is the author of “Be the Sun, Not the Salt”. He’s a shrink, coach, husband, father, restaurateur & entrepreneur with great stories and better truths.

Learn more about Harry’s book Be the Sun, Not the Salt at bethesunnotthesalt.com.

Podcast Transcript:

Julie Roehm: 00:00 Hello. Today, I am here with Dr. Harry Cohen, the co-founder and president of Be the Sun. Harry is a shrink, he's a coach, a husband, a father, a restaurateur, a serial entrepreneur, a speaker, and most importantly, he is my friend. Currently, he's an executive coach on retainer at several companies to help their executives and high-potential managers hone their leadership skills and focus on their unique strengths. For the past 10 years, Harry's also owned a successful bar and restaurant in Ann Arbor, Michigan, called The Black Pearl, which allows him the opportunity to practice the principles he teaches. And a few years ago, Harry gave a TEDx talk on his coaching philosophy, which is centered around heliotropic leadership, and his latest book, Be the Sun, Not the Salt, distills his best advice into one bite-size package, simple wisdom bound to evoke plenty of aha moments.

So, obviously I was reading this introduction, for people who know, and I'm here with Harry, who I've known for, I think, 20 years, a long time. And he was gracious enough, actually, to send me this book, which we will talk about towards, I think, the end of the podcast. But my very first reaction to this book was... It was as though he was literally in the room with me, because I have known you for so long, just saying, "Julie, just keep..." You know, the KISS, "Keep it simple, stupid." And so, as we were talking, very funny, these little pithy, very simple, it looks like a child's book at first. Like, it came in the mail, and I was like, "What is this?" It looked like a child's bedtime book. It's small, you flip it open, there's pictures, there's like 10 words on a page. But every page is a very simple life lesson, so it's awesome that you have been able to put your decades of experience and shrinking, head shrinking, right, into something like this.

Harry Cohen: 00:00 Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).

Julie Roehm: 01:56 But before we get there, because I know this is... He's super enthusiastic because, as well he should be, this is... He's sold already 9,000 of these things without really trying. But I want people to sort of get the benefit of what I know about you, which is kind of how you came to be. And so, as I do, people know I like to start with childhood, so I like to take your spot as the armchair psychiatrist here and say, "Okay, tell me about your childhood. Did your mother love you, Harry?"

Harry Cohen: 02:31 Ah, yes, it all comes back to-

Julie Roehm: 02:34 To Mom.

Harry Cohen: 02:34 ... my mother. So, yes, I grew up in a middle-class family. I was the youngest of three kids, the only son, and a really solid family. Loving, great parents, truly, and they did instill in me some very basic, simple principles. My dad used to say a thousand times, "Be good with people and have a marketable skill." That was the one principle that burned in my head. And, you know, "be good with people" is what I've made a living doing, by talking about how to be your best self. So, when I went to college, I was telling you this yesterday, I went to Cornell undergrad, and I was all set. When I was in high school, I wanted to be a doctor, so I went to college.

Julie Roehm: 03:20 Was your dad a doctor?

Harry Cohen: 03:20 No.

Julie Roehm: 03:21 No.

Harry Cohen: 03:21 My dad was a business owner in Buffalo, New York, and he owned Royal Crown Cola, the franchise there, and I definitely didn't want to go into the family business. It was a disgusting plant in downtown Buffalo, really smelled. I worked there every summer, and I drove a pop truck, and that's what I did to earn money growing up, but I knew I didn't want to be in the family business. And so, again, I was going to be a doc, went to Cornell, took every class to be pre-med and passed every single class, with the exception of organic chemistry, and organic chemistry was the one that was the weed-out course, which it's designed to do, and it did that for me. I dropped out of college.

I went and worked at a mental health facility for a year, and said, " Okay, I'm going to be a different kind of doctor." Went back to school to finish my degree in psych, and then went to Michigan to get a PhD. But that moment where I was, you know, "I guess I can't be a regular doc, I'll be a different kind of doc," it was pivotal for me. You know, you talk about holy shit moments. It was pivotal to me around, "Well, what the hell am I going to do?" I knew I wanted to be a person who wanted to help people, and...

Julie Roehm: 04:24 You had an advisor, though, you told me, who... And this isn't the first time, by the way, I've heard somebody in a college story with a professor or a manager. I've had two episodes already where somebody said something which I think is horrific, that has turned people's lives to something beautiful, and that happened to you.

Harry Cohen: 04:41 Yup, and having listened to your podcast, I know the ones that you-

Julie Roehm: 04:41 You know which ones?

Harry Cohen: 04:44 I know which ones you're talking about. And by the way, listening to your podcast is very inspiring for me in terms of the life stories and the lessons that we can learn as you get confronted with those moments of choices. I went to my psych professor, again, I'm re-enrolling in Cornell in the psych track, and I go to the head of the department, and I have my one-on-one, and he says, "What do you want to do?" And I said, "I don't know, all I know is that I want to help people." And he looked at me with that obnoxious, knowing, non-supportive way and said, "Well, most of the time, when people say they want to help people, they really want help."

It was such a bummer comment, and it really was salt on my roots, and I remember, which is why I can tell you this story. It was so gross, and what inspired in me is, I'm not going to be like that. I'm not going to be that person, that shrink that always sees pathology. And in fact, my whole practice, when I was in private practice, was not, "You have a pathology that needs to be treated that I'm going to treat." Screw that. For me, it was... I never bought the diagnostic pathology model as a doc. I'd have to sign things to get reimbursed by insurance, but I saw people with problems of daily living, and my job was to be a coach, a friend, a colleague, a good parent, a good advisor, a mentor, somebody who can say, "Dude, what are you... Let me give you a different way of looking at it. Let me try and bring out a different way of you thinking about it."

And I found it incredibly satisfying for me, and I've never stopped doing that. From my shrinking days to my coaching days to my talking now, it's the same damn thing. Practice these basic, simple principles that will be absolutely life-changing if you just do them. [crosstalk 00:06:29].

Julie Roehm: 06:29 Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I love that, and it's funny because it's... What he says is exactly, I think... People who are afraid of going to therapy, it's exactly that kind of thing that you...

Harry Cohen: 06:29 Exactly.

Julie Roehm: 06:41 It's like, "Ah, oh, you want to help somebody? Because what you're really saying is you want help." I mean, you could just... It's just like the worst possible stereotype, right?

Harry Cohen: 06:51 Yup, yup.

Julie Roehm: 06:51 So, amazing that you were like, "Yup, I'm going to go in, and I am going to, again, flip the model on what this means and what we can do." And so, you did, you went, and you did this, obviously you started... You did family, right, first?

Harry Cohen: 07:08 Yup. Yeah, I was a family therapist for about 10 years, marital and family therapist, and people with problems of daily living. And as a family systems therapist, you tend to see systems, you see the problems with the kids are probably related to the system, and the family, and the mother and father. So I use that same lens in my executive coaching corporations, because there's usually a mommy and a daddy, or some executive subsystem that's not functioning well together, and they're not communicating, and so you try and help the leadership team function.

Julie Roehm: 07:39 The CEO and the COO of the household.

Harry Cohen: 07:40 Exactly. Every leadership team in every company, you know, everyone can see, "Oh, those two don't get along," and it's going to bleed into the rest of the organization. So you cut to the chase, and you can talk about the obvious and get it done quicker. My thing in therapy was, "I don't want to be seeing you for years. I want you to get it fixed, get it done, change and move on. I'm not interested in building a deck on your problems, or buying a boat. I want you out of my office. I want the problem resolved, and you gone and happy." So that's my sort of philosophy about life, which is, how can we move you or anyone to resolution, to happiness, contentment? You know, fix the problem and move on.

Julie Roehm: 08:22 You know, I always think about, it makes sense to me... You know, when we met, I was at Ford, and Ford had this big... [inaudible 00:08:32] to call it, but Jim [Schreyer 00:08:35], our mutual friend, was part of this architecture. He wanted to come in and do something that was really sort of a culture movement, right, at Ford. And it was called Ford 2000, it was in the year 2000, it was the whole company and all the dealers. And that's where we met, and it made... Hearing you talk about what you did for families and thinking about how you looked at families, and then how you were able to then very easily transition that into companies, makes perfect sense.

But you have said something that I thought was very, very interesting, and without getting too sort of shrinky on philosophies of nature/nurture, that kind of thing, it is, though, that you have said that it isn't... So, you know, Bobby turns out to be a bad kid. It's not necessarily Mom and Dad's fault for being a bad CEO and COO of the household, right? And how, then, that transitions to the same thing in the corporate world.

Harry Cohen: 09:30 So, here's my insight. I was a family therapist before I had children. It's a ridiculous thought. I mean, how could I help families before I had children? And I used to think, to your point, that all the issues with a family are because of the mother and the father and the family system. Well, that's true, but not also true. So then, I had fraternal twin boys. These are boys born at the same time, different as night and day. They're the same gender, the same age, in the same family. They were different and are different from day one. It was such an enlightenment for me, that my wife and I, we raised them in a similar way, but they're different.

And understanding people's uniqueness was so obvious for me, and as a parent, I'm still learning. They're 27, and I'm still learning how to create a culture that is the most beneficial, loving, and supportive, but somewhat demanding in some ways, so that they can be thriving. And it was really helpful for me to see, oh my goodness, you have to do both. You have to recognize that people come wired as they are, already from birth, and you can create a culture, an environment, a system that brings out their best, regardless of whatever they're dealt with. Whatever unique strengths and challenges that they're dealt with, our job is to create an environment where they thrive, not just survive. So, that's been my life's work as a parent, as a shrink, and as a coach, which is, how do we create the best possible environment for individuals to thrive in tiny ecosystems, whether it's-

Julie Roehm: 11:05 In their natural...

Harry Cohen: 11:05 Yeah.

Julie Roehm: 11:07 And kind of based on what their own-

Harry Cohen: 11:08 Totally.

Julie Roehm: 11:08 ... or how they're... So I'm wondering, did you, when you had the twins, at that moment, did you believe that you and your wife would be able to basically nurture them the way that you want? Did something happen in their toddler years or something, where you were like, " There ain't no amount of stuff I'm going to be able to do to this kid to make him... I have to accept the way he is," and did that... I'm just wondering if there was a moment.

Harry Cohen: 11:38 Honestly, without revealing too many things about my children's upbringing, because they will hear this, and I do not want them to know some of the things that we said, you're kidding me. You got to be kidding me, I mean... So, what I learned from 27 years of parenting, and still learning, is you have to be completely paying attention to who they are at different ages and stages, because they're changing before your very eyes.

Harry Cohen: 12:00 Who they are at different ages and stages because they're changing before your very eyes and just because they're that age and gender that doesn't ... Look, they were the same age and gender, but one would be toilet trained two years later than the other or right about ... What's up with that?

Julie Roehm: 12:14 You were doing the exact same thing.

Harry Cohen: 12:16 Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're pooping in your pants and you're not what's up with ... Okay, now, that's obvious to people who have lots of kids, but I only had two so-

Julie Roehm: 12:23 At the same time.

Harry Cohen: 12:24 At the same time. So I didn't know. Julie, we have learned, I have learned and I'm still learning. How do you parent a five year old? How you parent a 10 year old? How do you pair to a 15 year old? They're 27 now. I want to be a great parent of these 27 year olds. I'm taking my one son out to dinner tonight because he just got into graduate school and I'm so proud of him.

I still am parenting. It's different now, but what I've learned, pay attention. I'm not done yet. I have to be really, really aware of how I can be best for them now. My dad and my mom, back to what you asked earlier, they were still parenting me in my forties. It wasn't the same as when I was a kid, but they were saying stuff to me. It was really, really, "Hey, you might want to think about," and really, and I never ... Like, "Come on. I'm a grown up. I'm already successful. What do I need? What do you need?" But now I get it. They were really trying to parent me at a different stage age and I wish they were alive. I'd have these conversations with them now. But that's my key insight is we got to pay attention, now. I'm not done.

Julie Roehm: 13:30 Yeah, well no, of course. None of us are. None of us are done. But what's interesting about this too is not only have you ... And I, again, I lived it firsthand, how you were able to sort of teach us as managers how to parent in a managerial setting, if you will, and take what you're given and try to bring out the best in those people. But what I think is fascinating, I mentioned in your bio read, that you created your own little Petri dish of this in Ann Arbor where both my boys were born by the way, at U of M Hospital. Yeah, a great little town.

Harry Cohen: 14:04 When you ever come back, please let me know.

Julie Roehm: 14:06 I will. I actually didn't know that you owned the Black Pearl. So I will, for sure. So this is your little Petri dish of experimentation.

Harry Cohen: 14:16 Yep. Yep.

Julie Roehm: 14:16 So tell me what ... Well, first of all, bring us back to when you started it? Why did you start it? How did you start it? I know there's a good story in there.

Harry Cohen: 14:23 So as a serial entrepreneur, I'll roll the dice on almost anything. I'll try it. I did a travel agency for awhile. I had a call center, which actually successfully sold and-

Julie Roehm: 14:33 I can't imagine you in a call center. Although, it makes sense. Like customer service and teaching people how to empathize on a phone. Okay, I guess so.

Harry Cohen: 14:39 Yeah, I had very little to do with that part of it. But anyway. But with the restaurant, we'll say, "Do you want to invest in a restaurant?" And I said, "Well, where would it be?" I saw the location. I said, "Well, I'll learn no matter what. I'll learn. My kids will be bus boys and they'll learn customer service. I know about people and maybe I can make it a successful business, but either way I'll learn a ton." I asked the fellow who asked me to be an investor, I said, "How are we going to do this?" He said, "OPM." I didn't realize at the time that I was the O and the P and the M, other people's money. Borrowed a million bucks from the bank and then after we launched and got it open, we needed more money. I went back to the bank. We opened the week that Lehman Brothers closed and all the banks shut down and needed more money. They lasted-

Julie Roehm: 15:22 So this is in '07?

Harry Cohen: 15:23 '08 is when we opened.

Julie Roehm: 15:25 '08.

Harry Cohen: 15:25 September 18th of '08. That week, everything shut down. And we opened that week. Well, I learned after three months that the guy that I partnered with was a crook. And so I had to get him out. So I'm the sole owner of this multimillion dollar business with no experience.

But what I learned is pay attention to the basics. Get the right people in the right seats on the bus and get the wrong people out and create a culture where over time people can feel that the owner takes care of them, the owner cares about them, we care about each other, take care of the customers, and eventually we'll make a buck. And over 10 years, we have expanded, built a new kitchen, built a private room. Seven thousand customers a month come through that place. Every single month. We've won a bunch of awards for our fish tacos, but I'm most proud that we support 45 families that people, the employees feel really grateful about working there and that customers keep coming back and love it. And I'm just thrilled that I get to practice this stuff where the employees feel it, the management team practices it, and customers keep coming back and eventually, we'll make some money.

Julie Roehm: 16:36 Well, and you walk ... So wait. This is you walking your talk.

Harry Cohen: 16:40 Of course.

Julie Roehm: 16:40 Because it's great. We ship you into our big corporate environments and you can stand there and talk and then you get to go home, and I don't mean to belittle because I know how hard it is and you have to build these relationships.

Harry Cohen: 16:51 Yeah, no, of course.

Julie Roehm: 16:51 But you went and walked the talk by setting this up. So I have to believe you've got a couple of very ... I talk about these [inaudible 00:16:57] a couple of really standout stories that put all those, your life lessons, kind of into an example that you were like, "Ah, here it's happening. It's at work. I've taught grasshopper."

Harry Cohen: 17:11 Oh, God! So here's the thing. I have learned by watching other successful entrepreneurs and companies and wise leaders operate. The woman who wrote the forward to my book, Mindy Holman, it's a $6 billion privately owned company and they operate by doing what I try and do, which is take care of their people, take care of their customers, take care of the community, and do the next right thing.

So in the Black Pearl, what I've been able to do, in those early years, is get the right people in and get the wrong people out. And I must say, I had to learn the hard way to get the wrong people out and get the right people in. There are people that will stink up the joint. And I made the mistake of allowing people that were toxic, salt shakers to other people's roots, in the business and unfortunately, for too long, and I allowed or created it. And that's the big insight for me. Any problem in the Black Pearl that has arisen or gotten worse, I'm it. It's a garden for me. And if I've got varmints in the garden, I let them in. And if the plants aren't thriving, they're not getting enough water, they're not getting a fertilizer, they're not getting enough sun, whatever it is, and I've watched over the years and unfortunately for me, it sometimes takes me a while to go, "Oh God, I knew it. I have to get him or her out."

Julie Roehm: 18:34 Yeah.

Harry Cohen: 18:34 And that's hard.

Julie Roehm: 18:34 Well, so I have to imagine ... Well look, it gives you a lot of empathy when you're going to talk to managers who have to deal with that all the time because now you're living it in real practice. But I know there's a couple of really great stories of things, either one where you had to get somebody out or one where you saw people doing what you could only hope that they would do. Will share a story with us?

Harry Cohen: 18:55 Oh, yes. So again, this is very, very quick. It happens all the time. This is one of the most beautiful things I saw, but I didn't tell you this one. But early in our process, my general manager, Michael, I see him bringing food in a styrofoam container to a couple on our patio. It's about 11:30 at night and our kitchen's closed and they're seated on our patio eating from another restaurant and I said, "What's going on? Michael, what's going on?" He said, "Those people, they're from out of town. He's transferred here. He's the head of the new transportation authority. He's here from Seattle, and they came here. It was recommended and our kitchen is closed, but I said, we're going to take care of you."

My guy went around the corner to another restaurant, got from the Fleetwood Diner, which probably still there, and got them dinner and brought them dinner and served it to ... I didn't tell him to do that. That's him doing the right thing for couples that's out of town, just taking care of them because that's how we want to roll. We will always take care of people because it's the right thing to do. And I didn't tell him that, but that kind of taking care of people, that's what I love.

Julie Roehm: 20:03 But you've created that culture.

Harry Cohen: 20:04 You bet. I'm proud of that.

Julie Roehm: 20:06 Those are the moments, and I know you have a lot of those moments.

Harry Cohen: 20:09 A ton of them. An absolute ton of them. And again, anybody who goes to the Black Pearl, I want them to experience, "Wow! You guys have something special here." I want them to see and feel the contagious effect of people caring for one another. We've had so many people ... This is just because I'm a shrink. I can see it. Who have had real difficulties in their life while employed there. And because I'm not an idiot, I can take care of them. I can help them in thousands of ways from their mental health challenges to their financial challenges to their family challenges to their criminal justice issue, challenges. And I'm proud of that.

There's a young man who's in prison. He gets out in November. He worked for us six years ago. And I've been talking to him every Saturday at 10 o'clock, when he's allowed to from the penitentiary because this is a kid that if he didn't have my wife and I, he'd be going back.

Julie Roehm: 21:02 So you're his touchdown.

Harry Cohen: 21:04 Totally. But I don't mind. This is a kid who he screwed up. At the age of 19, kids screw up. Okay? So anyway, he's just one example of we'll take care of the people who work in that little family because it feels like a family to us and I'm proud of that.

Julie Roehm: 21:19 I love that. I love that you're living it. So you're forward, as you mentioned, which obviously, I read your book, and you can read it in less than an hour. What I like about it is that now, I've left it out. In our house, we've got a big cloth ottoman with these little mini tables on them. And I leave it there and I roll the the soft cover over and it kind of as a bookmark into a chapter. And I've got one son, he's a senior, left at the house and I keep pointing. I'm like, "I want you to just read one of those." Because kids, there's so much turmoil in this ... There's so much stress.

Harry Cohen: 21:19 Did he get it?

Julie Roehm: 21:57 He does and he's like, "Mom, which one did you like?" And he knows my back story too. So he pulled one out and he used, I think, he used it or he used it as a thought starter for his college essay that he was writing.

Harry Cohen: 22:13 Nice.

Julie Roehm: 22:14 Yeah. So I'll have to share that with you. But he was able to just sort of take a piece of that and relate to it in terms of how to be ... Because in these college essays, they want you to write about giving back something. So anyway, less about me, but more about how we were able to take something so meaningful from your book, and I wanted to ask how the impetus came about for you to actually finally write these things down.

Harry Cohen: 22:41 So, okay, so I'm 64 and I'm getting near the end and-

Julie Roehm: 22:47 End of what?

Harry Cohen: 22:48 Well, end of my life. You know this.

Julie Roehm: 22:50 If you see him, there's no end in sight from what I can see.

Harry Cohen: 22:55 So at the point of this stage, age stage, I don't want to leave this earth without distilling what I've been talking about to people for 40 years. And I wanted to do it in a way that was remindy that it's 31, two page chapters. You can open up in any direction to be reminded of if you had 30 things, each day of a month, look at it and go, "Yeah, you know what? I could be a better listener. Yeah. You know what? I'm going to do the next right thing. You know what? I'm going to fill in the pothole of a street I don't walk down. You know what? I'm going to apologize."

So nuggets of wisdom that are easily remindy for us, for me, for you. This is not profound rocket science, and yet the reminder to do the next right thing or apologize well or clean up after yourself or think when any of these are to remind me and others of the basics. When you say, "Why'd I do this?" Because I don't have a lot of time left. People don't have time. Let this be 30 seconds, a timeless toilet read. Leave it in the John. Leave it outside. Leave it on your ...

Harry Cohen: 24:00 Timeless toilet read. Leave it in the john, leave it outside, leave it on your desk, look at the cover, make the point, open up to any page. You go, "Got it. Yep. Thank you."

I just gave this talk to this ad agency that you know well and they were eating it up, for the simple reason that you don't have to do anything other than hold the door, smile at a stranger. You know what I mean? Say please and thank you. It makes a difference.

Julie Roehm: 24:25 Well, and it's going back to the beginning where I like to start with childhood. You came from a very stable home with good solid salt of the earth parents. You talked about parenting yourself.

This book to me, seems like not just something for business people figuring out how to be a better teammate or be a better leader but it's as a parent now hearing you, if you just smile, please, and thank you.

Harry Cohen: 24:57 I know.

Julie Roehm: 24:58 They're actually just the things of life. If you just do these things, you'd be successful in life.

Harry Cohen: 25:02 Period. And the key for me is a little tiny bit, voting in the direction of your best or better self, is all you have to do a smidgen more. And by the way, Julie, people already do this, so just do that more. As a parent, I can be a better listener. I don't have to salt my kids' roots. I can bite my tongue. I wrote it for myself, and for you, and for every parent, and every kid, every person who wants to nudge themselves towards their better self.

We will be happier and more effective if we practice this stuff. And it's the practice of it that makes us better at it. And I'm not done practicing. I'm still doing it.

And so why I wrote it, I wrote it so that my life doesn't end without it being in the bloodstream of our world. That we can use this as a way of saying, "Hey dude, you're being salty." "Thanks man. Appreciate that." "Hey, just chill." "Appreciate that." "Hey man, come on, a little bit more sun." "You're right." That's it.

Just last night, I was having dinner at the Pearl, and there was a woman who was really loud, and it was bugging with me. I was with a group of people, and I was worried about whether they're having a good experience or not. And I was looking over at the woman, this woman who had this terrible cackle. He said, "Harry, relax. We're drinking wine, we're having fun, chill." And I appreciate the fact that he just did that. Don't worry. Thank you. Done.

Julie Roehm: 26:22 Taylor Swift, you got to calm down.

Harry Cohen: 26:24 Totally true!

Julie Roehm: 26:26 It's my favorite song because I get spazzy too.

Harry Cohen: 26:27 By the way, we all get spazzy.

Julie Roehm: 26:28 I get a little fired up. I get a little intense.

Harry Cohen: 26:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chill.

Julie Roehm: 26:34 Just chill a little.

The title I love, Be the Sun, Not the Salt. Where did that come from?

Harry Cohen: 26:40 I did this TED talk, which is about heliotropic leadership. The heliotropic effect is the effect of all living systems to be drawn to energy, which sustains life, which is why a plant tilt towards the sun. Hence be a positive energizer like the sun and the leaves of the plant, and not a negative energizer like salt on the roots, which makes them shrivel.

I ended the talk with be the sun, not the salt. Leave them with an afterglow, not an aftertaste. People can remember that. The metaphor be the sun, not the salt. Be a positive energizer, not a negative energizer.

I was joking before we started, the title could be, don't be a dick.

Julie Roehm: 27:19 Don't be a dick. Love it.

Harry Cohen: 27:20 But I didn't want to say that because people will be offended by that.

Julie Roehm: 27:24 It's hard to get that published.

Harry Cohen: 27:25 It is! Oh my God! But it really is true.

Julie Roehm: 27:25 It is true.

Harry Cohen: 27:28 And by the way, I can be a dick and I don't want to be.

Julie Roehm: 27:30 Right.

Harry Cohen: 27:31 There's no excuse for me being a dick.

That's the title. Be the Sun, Not the Salt. Think in those terms. You don't have to do anything else. There's a million ways to be the sun, authentically, not fake. Just be it in your own way. Because by the way, you already are. When you uplift someone, Julie, when you smile and you do something wonderful, and people are uplifted by you, and they are, that's it. Do that some more. And then when you are a dick, when you get all revved up, when you inadvertently, unintentionally and unconsciously salt someone's roots, which we do, just see that you did it, and apologize, and do the next right thing.

How hard is that? Well, it is hard sometimes. That's our gig.

I went into this hospital once for ... Can I tell you this story?

Julie Roehm: 28:20 I would love it.

Harry Cohen: 28:20 Okay. I went into this hospital. I was anxious about an appointment. I go and I say, "Excuse me. Is Dr. Lisi here?" "And your name is?" "Harry Cohen." "Do you have an appointment here?" "Yes, I do." " And his name again?" "Dr. Lisi." "Is this for a medical appointment?" "Yes it is." "Are you sure it's at this?" And then I'm not irritated.

Julie Roehm: 28:40 Right.

Harry Cohen: 28:40 While she's talking to me, I turn and I call my primary care physician, and I said, "Is it here? Or is it St. Joe's?" "Oh, it's not at the U? Okay, sorry." I walk out, I'm at the valet stand, and I realize I just wrote this book, do the next right thing.

I go back in because I realized I was obnoxious. I say to her, "I'm really sorry for being rude and disrespectful to you. I'm anxious about this appointment. That's no excuse. I just want to say I'm sorry for being rude." Her face softened, and she goes, "Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Really do. Good luck on your appointment."

Now, I felt good that I did the next right thing after being a dick.

Julie Roehm: 29:16 Right.

Harry Cohen: 29:16 I don't want a medal but I'm just saying, "I did it!"

Julie Roehm: 29:16 Right.

Harry Cohen: 29:20 That's what the book does for me, it reminds me, "Dude come on." Thank you. And then, I found out I got cancer.

Julie Roehm: 29:29 Oh my God!

Harry Cohen: 29:30 That's the good news. The good news is ... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julie Roehm: 29:33 That's the good news?

Harry Cohen: 29:34 The good news is it's great cancer. It's bladder cancer. I've had several surgeries and several treatments, but I'm fine now.

Julie Roehm: 29:34 Okay.

Harry Cohen: 29:41 But here's the good news, and it really is Julie, it's the best gift that I've ever received. And I mean that because it really reminded me, having cancer it makes no difference whatsoever. I get to practice being the sun and not the salt in every one of my treatments, in my life going forward. I don't know how long I'm going to live, but it looks really good for now, but it doesn't matter. I get to do this, Julie.

Julie Roehm: 30:02 Yeah.

Harry Cohen: 30:02 And the fact that I have cancer is the gift that I get to say, "Dude, I can be the sun and not the salt," with my nurses, with the doctors. And I got to tell you, I got a really good cancer. You know what I mean? I don't have the bad stuff. For now, it makes no difference. I'm so grateful that I have all these wonderful resources that I can even talk about this. I used to say, I found the secret to life, the cure for cancer. Well, now I get to talk about it. It's that simple. Be kind, be compassionate, be grateful, lean into any virtue that you love. You just can't go wrong. There's no downside.

Julie Roehm: 30:40 Yeah. Do you have a favorite lesson?

Harry Cohen: 30:43 Yes. Remember who you are. There's 30 chapters. What do you mean, remember who you are? Or you could say, do the next right thing. Remember who you are. If you're a good person, and by the way you are, I happen to know you. And by the way, this book is for those that are only good people, okay? For people who aren't good people, it's not ... But if you just remember who you are, you vote in the direction of who you are. That's it. If you remember, "Oh, wait. I'm a good person. I'm a person who wants to change, improve, grow, and be my best self, and be kind, and thoughtful. I want to be a good friend, and a good husband, and a good person." Well, shit! Then do that. Do the behaviors that would lead to that.

This great book, I would recommend, Highly Atomic Habits. It's about the tiniest little things that make a huge difference. That's the point. You don't have to be unanimous in winning the vote for your best self. Just if you do a hundred things and 70 are great, great! Do 71. And if you do five things great, go for six. That's the cool part.

If you remember who you are ... Simon Sinek talks about why, which is phenomenal. You've got to know why you want to lean into this stuff. Really important. Equally important, is who are you? You shouldn't do any of this stuff unless you know why you're doing it and who are you. And if you know why you're doing it, and you know who you are, damn! The world is just fabulous, and people will be uplifted by you because of who you are.

Julie Roehm: 32:10 I love that. My dad used to say, "Remember where you came from." It's of the same thing.

Harry Cohen: 32:16 Exactly.

Julie Roehm: 32:16 We are all just people, and we all start from the same place, and we will all end up in the same place physically.

Harry Cohen: 32:23 Totally.

Julie Roehm: 32:23 It's a great lesson. And I am so happy, A, that you have been a guest here because you have been a friend to me, and I will be happy to tell that. In the times of my greatest personal stress, you were one of the phone calls that came when people really weren't calling. You called, and just, "What can I do?"

You always have been there giving those lessons freely, and I think that there's no better person to put those life lessons down on paper than you. I hope people just listening to your energy, will then pick up this book. And just because it's such a simple, easy read, and it's a great pass along book, it's a perfect one for that. A great little Christmas thing, whatever. It's a great life lesson reminder, and it is a good gift that you are leaving.

Harry Cohen: 33:13 Julie, the reason I reached out to you is the practice of the same thing. It's, what is a friend, but someone who an reach out to someone in need and say, "Hey, man. Is there anything I can do for you? I'm there for you." That's all I said. I didn't do anything for you, other than reach out and say, "I'm there for you." Well, that's a sweet thing to do to a loved one, or a friend, or a brother, or a sister.

Man oh man. Imagine if we did that more. I want to do that more.

Julie Roehm: 33:35 Right.

Harry Cohen: 33:36 Period.

Julie Roehm: 33:37 I remember it as clear as day.

Harry Cohen: 33:39 I do too.

Julie Roehm: 33:39 And there's so few. And you do too. But those are the things. It's such a small gesture, but it can be so meaningful. I think we all forget that.

Harry Cohen: 33:46 You posted something, which is why I reached out to you again. You posted something from someone who I believe was dying.

Julie Roehm: 33:54 Yes, or had died.

Harry Cohen: 33:55 Had died. And again, it moved me to tears, which is why I reached out to you again because it touched me about, hey, when we get the knock on our shoulder, "Hey, it's your time," which we're all going to get, we'll let's not waste our life now. Let's get that lesson out. That was the same point. That's why I'm actually here because you, by posting that, invited me to say, "Oh, excuse me, Julie, I want to share this."

Julie Roehm: 34:23 I'm so glad you did because, again, I've already shared it with my friend, my son. I've got another friend, a friend of a friend, who is a "asshole", but he picked it up. He picked it up. He wants to be better. That's the first step. Don't be a dick.

Oh, Larry, thank you so much for coming. It's been such a treat.

Harry Cohen: 34:44 My pleasure.

Julie Roehm: 34:45 All right.

Harry Cohen: 34:46 Anything I can do for you, you just ask.

Julie Roehm: 34:49 And I know that's true. It's always been true, not about this. Please, if you have this, I'm going to give a plug because I believe in this. Be the Sun, Not the Salt, Dr. Harry Cohen. Thanks, everybody.

Harry Cohen: 35:00 Thank you.