Interview with Indie Lee, CEO and Founder of Indie Lee & Co.
“You have 6 months to live..”. Those were the words that forever changed Indie Lee’s life and turned her into a self-made, natural beauty care product mogul... but it was anything but easy. Listen in as Indie shares her story. #hoshimo #csuite
Discover Indie’s skincare products at indielee.com.
Learn how Indie Lee’s journey began.
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Transcript:
Julie: 00:00 Welcome back to another edition of The Conversational. Today I am here with the lovely Indie Lee. So, Indie has a really eclectic background. She was a CPA-
Indie: 00:12 I love that description.
Julie: 00:14 Well, the CPA and the number junkie is a very interesting way to start from where you are today, which we'll get into. But she was a CPA. She started off, I think, at Ernst & Young, right? Then, moved on to be a manager of international finance at HBO.
Indie: 00:31 Correct.
Julie: 00:32 Right? Then founder of your own consulting firm, Tapestry Consulting.
Indie: 00:35 Yep, and that was more recruiting.
Julie: 00:36 More recruiting? Okay. So it kind of kept evolving from the financial, and now you are the founder, CEO of a mega cosmetic-
Indie: 00:46 Thank you.
Julie: 00:47 ... health and beauty brand called Indie Lee. And it's at Nordstrom's and Sephora, and it's booming. I just shared with her that I went on and bought a whole bevy of products that I have laid out.
Indie: 01:00 Thank you for the support.
Julie: 01:01 I'm excited to try that. But I think the evolution, while all this is super impressive and it's why I have you here, the premise, of course, of my conversational podcast is about really these holy shit moments that happen that lead us to maybe something that we never thought was in our future or destiny, and yours has been quite the ride, right?
Indie: 01:24 Never thought that I would be doing this.
Julie: 01:26 Never, right? Not in your wildest dreams.
Indie: 01:28 No, no, no, Not in a million years. I was a numbers cruncher, really a numbers geek. And I was risk adverse. So yeah, it makes perfect sense that ...
Julie: 01:41 So, this was obviously your destiny.
Indie: 01:43 Right.
Julie: 01:44 So, let's evolve back towards early day. So where are you from? What'd your parents do? Do you have brothers and sisters?
Indie: 01:52 I have one sister, Joelle, and I have one nephew with her, Max. Hi, Max, because I know he listens to all my pods.
Julie: 02:01 Oh, yay.
Indie: 02:01 He does. And my mom was a teacher, she's now retired. And my dad owned the family printing corporation for years. It was my grandfather's, then my father's. I had pretty much the picture perfect life.
Julie: 02:21 Suburban? Where were you?
Indie: 02:22 I was in East Setauket, Long Island.
Julie: 02:24 Long Island?
Indie: 02:25 Yes. Notice I pronunciate. If we're here really late it won't be so much. But no, I had one of those bucolic lives where great family, great friends, great school. The whole thing. I had one of those normal lives. When people talk about it, I'm like "Yeah, I can't say really anything when I was growing up."
Julie: 02:46 Yeah, but it's interesting too to think, so you had an educator for a parent and your dad in the printing business, so it sort of naturally came that you liked numbers, because obviously you chose the life of a CPA?
Indie: 03:01 So, when I was growing up my parents would say, my mom's like "You have to be a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant, or a teacher."
Julie: 03:10 Oh.
Indie: 03:10 Yes. I think it was actually, "A doctah, a lawyah, a teachah." And I can't stand the site of blood, so doctor was out. I don't like to argue, so definitely lawyer wasn't going to happen. I certainly didn't think I had the patience to be a teacher. I'm like "I'm really good at numbers." And the other part of this was I was being somewhat groomed to take over the family business. It's so funny. I can remember probably 10 years old and I was wearing three-piece suits.
Julie: 03:38 No kidding?
Indie: 03:39 Oh yeah, pin stripe. They were like knicker type back then.
Julie: 03:42 To school, did you?
Indie: 03:44 I don't know if I wore them to school. Probably not to school, but if I had a day off I would go into work with my father. So I would dress that part.
Julie: 03:52 Interesting.
Indie: 03:53 Yeah. So, maybe I was, well, being announced right here, maybe that is where the entrepreneurial spirit was, but that's what it was too, to take over the business.
Julie: 04:06 So when you graduated high school and went on, when you went to college you had this thought "Okay, CPA." Did you know?
Indie: 04:13 Yeah.
Julie: 04:13 You knew?
Indie: 04:13 So, no. Well, I was going to be an accountant. I had to have the degree. So, it was like "Well duh, I'm taking over the family business. I'm going to go into that." And then, when I was, gosh, I think I was a junior, I got the phone call. Maybe it was sophomore or junior that my father's business was closing, and I was like "What? No, that's supposed to be my career." I was like "Well, I have an accounting degree. I'm going to become an accountant. I'll be a CPA." And then I was also obsessed with the movie Wall Street, so I'm like "I'll go the investor ..." I don't know what I was thinking. So yeah, I followed that and I knew I wanted to work for Ernst & Young, and I really wanted to stay on the Island. And going into my junior or senior year I had already had a job offer, because I interned for them. I had the job offer a year-plus early.
Julie: 05:09 Did you want to be on the Island because you wanted to be close to family still?
Indie: 05:12 Yeah.
Julie: 05:13 Was it kind of that familial connection?
Indie: 05:15 Absolutely, yes. 100%.
Julie: 05:15 Strong there. So, then you did E&Y. So your plan had already started. So you had like a mini Hoshimo, as we would say-
Indie: 05:23 Yes I did.
Julie: 05:24 ... with your dad's business going, and now you had to kind of reroute yourself a little.
Indie: 05:27 Yep.
Julie: 05:28 So, how did your experience go at EY?
Indie: 05:30 So, I did the obligatory 18 months so I can sign off on the CPA exam. As soon as I passed CPA then I was like "I don't really want to do auditing." But I knew I wanted to do something cool, like fashion, international, entertainment, and HBO was looking for someone in international. I'm like "Oh my gosh", and got this incredible opportunity. I say I grew up HBO, because I was there for over eight years. I had an incredible career there, I really did, and I owe so much to that company and to those people. I managed their international finance division. I got to travel all over the world, and then I had my son.
Julie: 06:15 So, when did you get married? You got married in this realm?
Indie: 06:18 Yeah, I got married in that, yup, in 1995.
Julie: 06:20 In the HBO era?
Indie: 06:21 Oh yeah, it's like-
Julie: 06:22 Everything happened [crosstalk 00:06:22]
Indie: 06:23 Oh my gosh.
Julie: 06:23 You literally grew up both professionally and personally?
Indie: 06:25 I remember my goodbye email when I had left was I grew up here. I bought my first house and second house while I was there. I had both kids while I was there. I got married while I was there. You truly grew up at HBO. And after I had my son I realized I couldn't do the international travel, I got this opportunity to move over to the domestic side of it, and within a year a half. It was amazing. I worked for some really powerhouse people that I will never forget and I'm completely grateful to, but I realized that I really wasn't in love with accounting, which is another huge-
Julie: 07:00 Oh yeah, Hoshimo.
Indie: 07:01 ... Hoshimo moment. I left to have my own consulting ... I was really doing career consulting and recruiting and whatnot.
Julie: 07:11 So, it's interesting, how did that, because you come from accounting ...
Indie: 07:15 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Julie: 07:16 I've heard people where they've been in HR for instance, big companies, and then they go to executive search or their own piece. But you went from an accounting role to-
Indie: 07:24 To that, yeah.
Julie: 07:25 Yeah, that seems a little bit of a leap. How did you-
Indie: 07:28 I always loved managing people. That was the part that I loved. I loved helping others find what they were passionate about it and help them find that role and comfort in where they're working. We spend so much time in our jobs, the thought that people should have those scary Sundays, I wanted to help people not have that, and find where their bliss was. I probably was the worst recruiter, because it wasn't about the money, it was about making the right decision for that person. And before I knew it I was doing it for a short period of time. Then a friend of mine was building school gardens, and I got very involved with that. I said "That I believe in. I'm a gardener at heart. I have green thumbs, toes, nose, the whole thing." And I said "Let me help you. I'll run your nursery", and they said "Well, we don't have a nursery." I said "Not yet." And anybody listening to this probably can tell I'm a type A personality. So I built a 750 square foot greenhouse-
Julie: 08:31 My god.
Indie: 08:31 ... in my backyard. I was like "Ta-da! You have a nursery!"
Julie: 08:35 Yeah, "Let's see how this goes."
Indie: 08:36 Yep. And of course one thing led to another and I basically became their CFO, and I wasn't working in the greenhouse. I said "You know, that's not really what I want to do", and I kind of worked in the greenhouse only and was providing edible flowers to Whole Foods.
Julie: 08:51 Really?
Indie: 08:52 Yeah, Starter Plants. Yeah.
Julie: 08:54 Edible flowers?
Indie: 08:54 Yeah.
Julie: 08:55 I mean, you see them. I'm always reluctant to eat a flower.
Indie: 08:58 No, they're delicious. There's [inaudible 00:09:00]. So that's what I was doing. I was bringing micro greens to restaurants, et cetera. It was great.
Julie: 09:06 And I know in this period, because anybody who knows you knows that probably, well, you've got a couple of other Hoshimo's down the path that we're about to soon embark upon here, but the one was sort this realization that you weren't feeling right in your body.
Indie: 09:22 Yes.
Julie: 09:22 Right?
Indie: 09:23 Yeah. No. So, it was probably June/July of 2008.
Julie: 09:28 Were you still at HBO then?
Indie: 09:30 No, no. I was totally gone.
Julie: 09:32 You were here? Okay.
Indie: 09:32 I left in 2005, 2006. So, I had the greenhouse in the backyard and I wasn't able to open and close my hands, and I could barely get on my shoes, and I would take hikes every day.
Julie: 09:46 Because it was painful?
Indie: 09:46 Painful.
Julie: 09:47 Painful to do.
Indie: 09:47 I had like claws, right? I was swollen. It was so painful, like on fire. My joints were on fire and I would go on walks with my best friend and I would have to have her tie my shoes. I was like "Something is up." I honestly thought I had Lyme disease, because living up here, and that's when things were coming out about it. And the doctor said "I don't think this is Lyme, I think this is Rheumatoid Arthritis", and I said "I'm too young for Arthritis." He said "It's not an old person disease." He was right. I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis and I actually had to go on Methotrexate, which is a form of chemotherapy drugs, to really keep it at bay, and I am eternally grateful for it, because it allowed me to get my life back. But I wasn't able to work in the greenhouse. My hands in moist soil, being in the greenhouse, that was not the ideal environment for someone who is really trying to deal with flare ups.
Julie: 10:44 So it's awful. It was bit of a curse, because it took away-
Indie: 10:49 What I loved.
Julie: 10:50 ... a personal passion?
Indie: 10:51 It did. It really did. But I'm an optimist, so I was like "Okay, what am I going to do?" At the same time my sister announced that she's pregnant with Max, and I was like "Well, I don't want anything toxic to be on his tush." So I created products for him to unveil at the baby shower, using ingredients that I had been growing. So what am I going to do with a lot of lavender and a lot of calendula? And I always loved Martha Stewart and the whole D.I.Y. concept of skin care and body care. I'm like "I'm going to make products for her, and then I'm going to make little ones to share with everybody at the shower." And of course, A-type personality, I also bought a professional label printer, learned Illustrator, and then made this-
Julie: 11:41 Oh my god.
Indie: 11:41 ... collection. I called it the Botanical Baby. And everybody's like "Oh my gosh, this is what you should do." I'm like "I don't really know if this is what I want to do."
Julie: 11:50 So what year was this?
Indie: 11:53 This was 2008.
Julie: 11:54 Eight? Okay, so this is literally right after you were diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis?
Indie: 11:58 Oh yeah. The universe was trying to send me these signals all along, and I just wasn't listening to it. So the universe decided to send me a huge sign.
Julie: 12:09 That you will not be able to ignore.
Indie: 12:10 No, that I could not ignore. And I started losing my vision.
Julie: 12:18 What story do you recall most of that being super impactful, losing your vision? Was it like a moment?
Indie: 12:26 It's the whole way it worked out. My sister's baby shower was like in October. So look at the timing of this. Shower's in October, and I'm starting to notice on my left side, "Hm, that's weird. Maybe I need to go get glasses. Something's going on." Then I'm noticing it coming even further.
Julie: 12:43 Like your peripheral vision.
Indie: 12:43 Yeah, like losing peripheral vision on my left side, and announced at the shower, everybody says "This is what you should be doing." I'm like "No, I don't really know what I am going to do though", and I said "I've got to get this looked at." November 4th 2008, went to my primary care, my internist, and I said "Hey, something's up. I'm losing my vision out of my left eye and it's happening a little quicker where it's noticeable that I'm losing my vision." It's not like "Oh, I think I need glasses", it's "Oh, I'm losing my vision." And he said "You need to go for an MRI right away." 45 minutes after I walked out of the scan I was sitting at my house, he called and he said "Could you come in?"
Julie: 13:30 Oh god.
Indie: 13:30 I was like "Peter, tell me what this is", and he's like "Well, come in and we'll talk about it." I said "Peter, I'm going to go down the rabbit hole of Google and WebMD, tell me and I'll be right in." He said "You were right. You have a brain tumor."
Julie: 13:46 Oh god. Oh god.
Indie: 13:48 And I said "Okay. I'll see you in 15 minutes."
Julie: 13:51 I can't imagine what's going through your mind at this point. So because you had obviously thought-
Indie: 13:58 I was like "What else could this be?" I kind of had a feeling, and I even said "I don't know, maybe I have a brain tumor or something, but something's going on. I was diagnosed with R.A. a few months ago, now I have this ... What is going on?" And he's like "We need to get a scan." So I wasn't like "What?" I was like "Okay."
Julie: 14:21 Confirmed that you knew yourself better, right?
Indie: 14:23 Yeah.
Julie: 14:23 Which is very interesting. I think while you wanted to ignore it, you are somebody-
Indie: 14:29 I'm in-tune with my body.
Julie: 14:29 ... who's very "Mm. Mm-hmm (affirmative)"
Indie: 14:31 Yeah, very much so.
Julie: 14:33 Anyway. I'm trying to connect dots here, there's so many interesting things. So keep going with your story.
Indie: 14:41 So, it's interesting, everybody says "Well, what did you do in that moment?" I'm like "I got in the car-
Julie: 14:45 And drove to the doctor.
Indie: 14:47 ... doctor. What do you mean?" But I didn't call anybody.
Julie: 14:51 It doesn't surprise me. You're very analytical. Clearly, very analytical. I relate to that very much. It's like "I have a problem, now I need the plan. Let's work the problem", right?
Indie: 15:01 Exactly. I'm a planner.
Julie: 15:02 "Let's not let the emotions get in. Let's work the problem", right?
Indie: 15:04 Absolutely.
Julie: 15:05 I relate to that. I think some people are like "No, it's the emotion", and there are people like that, but I'm a-
Indie: 15:10 But I'm not. I'm like "Okay." I wasn't shocked. "Okay, great. Let me come in."
Julie: 15:14 "Now what do we do?
Indie: 15:15 Right. And I don't want to start making phone calls to people when I don't know what it is. Well, it's interesting. Got in the car, and that was one of those moments. 15 minutes to the doctors, changed my life forever. And not in the "What am I going to do with my life" in terms of career, but just "Who am I and what am I doing?" I got in the car, driving, and it was beautiful November day. November 4th, gorgeous. The leaves are really ... we're at like peak season here in New York. And everything becomes in Technicolor, and I realized "This is happening for a reason. My job is to just allow it to unfold and something incredibly powerful is going to happen from it." And I realized "My gosh, I am this planner. I've been planning my entire life away, truly." Like "Okay, I'm going to take over the family business." Nope. "Okay, then I'm going to be the accountant. Then I'm going to go do this. I'm going to have this incredible career, I'm going to have these two kids. I'm going to make it a boy and girl.
Indie: 16:25 I realize I had no real say in that, but I like to pretend I did. "I'm going to have two dogs. I'm going to have this, the whole thing", and somewhere in the realm of this I'd completely forgotten the whole point was to live life. I was a passenger, and I wasn't living vibrantly. I swore from that moment on I was going to live every day with what now I call my three Ps, which is on Purpose, on with Passion and be fully Present in every moment, because I didn't want to miss any moment, because I didn't know what it was going to be in three, four minutes when I walked into the doctor's office. But whatever it was, however long I had left, this was going to be how I was going to live my life.
Julie: 17:10 So this is the 15 minutes?
Indie: 17:10 This is the 15 minutes life-changing drive.
Julie: 17:17 It's like Geico, right? But 15 minutes will change your-
Indie: 17:19 It changed my life.
Julie: 17:20 Yeah, in this case your whole life. So you get to the doctor, and what does he tell you?
Indie: 17:26 I was like "Okay, what do we got?" He goes "Well, that's not how I expected you to walk in here." I said "I'm oddly in a good place at this moment", and he said "We don't know what this is, it does not look like cancer." And it was not. He said "But you need to go see some heavy-hitters." So I consulted with Duke, I went down to the NIH, spoke to Johns Hopkins, Sloan Kettering, and everyone said "We don't know really what this is, but it does not look like cancer." I said "I don't know if there's very much we can do." A couple of them said "Get your affairs in order. Spend time with your children. Depending on this growth ...", because they were, from doctor-to-doctor, was growing. "It could be as little as six months."
Indie: 18:16 And I, at every doctor, was like "Okay. Nope. Thank you very much. I'll go find somebody else who gives me something different." Yeah, there were misdiagnoses and whatnot, and I just knew to keep going at it. Between the first and second doctor I went to my neuroendocrinologist and I said "How is this possible? Nobody in my family has anything like this." He said "Well, we're seeing more and more of these things being tied to the environment", and I'm like "Environment? What are you talking about? I have a greenhouse that I'm eating organically out of. I'm in great shape. I don't smoke."
Julie: 18:57 "I don't smoke. I don't work in a factory."
Indie: 18:58 Yeah, "Come on!" And I said "Oh my gosh. I was in the city during 9-11." All those kind of things, and he said "Who knows? Listen, what do you put on your skin?" I was like "What?" He said "What do you put on your skin?" He goes "It could be something you're putting on your skin too, it could be something your mother used when she was pregnant. It could be any of these things", and in that moment it was like boom, that was my awakening.
Julie: 19:31 This connection between that and what you had just done at the baby shower for Max, right?
Indie: 19:34 Right. Exactly. I didn't want something toxic on his tush, because I knew there was very little regulation. I knew that the laws hadn't changed since 38. All these things I knew, but never thought about myself, or the bigger, grander picture of this industry, and I said "Oh my gosh, that's why this is happening." Who knows what caused this? Nobody's ever going to know what caused what happened to me, but doctors feel it is autoimmune related and I have had so many autoimmune issues.
Julie: 20:05 Mm-hmm (affirmative) Rheumatoid arthritis.
Indie: 20:07 All right, I had pancreatitis, which was autoimmune related and not from drinking. My body didn't want to stay pregnant with both children and went into early labor at 20 and 28 weeks. My body just fights itself. So in the moment I was like "I need to create a change. I'm going to create a line that is clean, that is effective, that looks really chic on a shelf, because let's face it, in 2008 there really wasn't clean beauty. It was just starting. Thanks to like Dr. Hauschka and Horst with Aveda. Tata Harper was just coming onto the scene about the same time.
Indie: 20:48 So there really wasn't this chic accessible clean idea yet, and more importantly I wanted to educate and empower and inspire others to live a healthier version of their life. When you have six months to live you decide how you're going to spend it. I was going to spend as much time as possible with my kids when they were home from school, and when they weren't I was going to look for a different doctor that would give me a different diagnosis and prognosis, and I would research everything I could on the beauty industry, skin care and body care.
Julie: 21:23 I just want to go back, because I think it's interesting for people to hear. So you said you looked at the laws since 1938. For those, especially women, who were always looking for the elixirs, the fountain of youth in a crème in some sort of bottle, what was that law, just briefly?
Indie: 21:42 So the laws haven't substantially changed since 1938. In Europe there are about 1300 I think and 38 ingredients that are banned for use. In the U.S. there are about 11. You hear different statistics, 11 to 30, depending on how you categorize an ingredient. I was like "That is unacceptable." And the laws that were passed, in many cases were on labeling. Like you had to have a label on the-
Julie: 22:12 Disclosure.
Indie: 22:13 ... disclosure. Not what was going in it. The point size of the font that says the size. The INCI deck, which is the International Nomenclature for Cosmetic Ingredients, had to be written on every bottle, or every box at point of sale. Those were a lot of the things that have been gone into movement, but not really regulating the industry and what was going into products.
Julie: 22:38 Okay, that's interesting. So you really had to pioneer this on your own in many cases, because you didn't have the benefit of the FDA or the legal system to help you define what is potentially harmful?
Indie: 22:53 Exactly. So I really went and nosedived. I had talked to homeopathic doctors, aromatherapists, dermatologists. I still to this day, at my desk at home, I have the physicians' desk reference for homeopathic and natural medicines. Like the whole thing. But it was like "Okay, what do I want to use on my body and how can I do it effectively, but clean?"
Julie: 23:25 We know you're still here, so the six months was not, but the theoretical six months you were like "Okay. I'm going to talk to doctors, but I'm going to go deep dive into what this should be so I-
Indie: 23:35 And started created products.
Julie: 23:35 ... can potentially leave a legacy behind should the six months, the worst be true", right?
Indie: 23:39 Absolutely. I wanted to leave a legacy of change. And pretty grand of an idea. Ignorance is bliss. I had no idea what I was doing, completely honest on that, but I started concocting and started with the Botanical Collection that I made for Botanical Baby for my nephew, and then started the Botanical Collection, which was really like bath salts, body oils. I made a body scrub. One of the first products I ever made was a coconut citrus body scrub, which is in our line today. So it's amazing what I was able to create over a short period of time, but then something incredible happened, and I found a doctor who said "I'm willing to take a shot at doing surgery." I said "Sign me up. Let's do it", and he said "You know, you have less than 50% chance."
Julie: 24:28 50% chance of-
Indie: 24:29 Waking up.
Julie: 24:30 ... waking up from it. Okay. Not that he'd given up.
Indie: 24:32 Yeah, and I said "That's great. Let's do it." And he said "Okay, we're going to do it on April 22nd."
Julie: 24:41 2008?
Indie: 24:42 2009.
Julie: 24:43 Nine? Sorry.
Indie: 24:43 Yup, which is Earth Day.
Julie: 24:46 Oh my gosh.
Indie: 24:47 So the universe sends you signs. In fact, it's so funny, because I did not want to do it that day because the 23rd was my daughter's 6th birthday. I was like "If this doesn't go well I'm going to scar her for the rest of her life." And the doctor says "We're doing it on this day." I said "You know what? I'm going to take it as a sign." And yeah, April 22nd I walk into the surgical suite and I said "Today's a great day to live." He put on some kick tush music, and "Let's get going." Of course people thought I was nuts, and maybe-
Julie: 25:21 How'd your husband feel about this, all this?
Indie: 25:26 I know this was really difficult for him.
Julie: 25:28 Oh, I'm sure.
Indie: 25:30 This was not something that he was really up to handle.
Julie: 25:35 But obviously supportive.
Indie: 25:37 I surrounded myself with people who ... I have my best friend Dana, took my to every doctor's appointment. She was with me. I credit her for being alive, because I don't think I could've done it without her.
Julie: 25:50 Oh, that's great.
Indie: 25:51 And that's why I think having a support system in anything in life in so important. We started this tradition, in fact, every morning when I got sick we started texting "Good morning, sunshine." To this day we still text each other "G.M.S." wherever we are in the world every morning. And by the way, anybody who's listening who's every gotten a package from us, it's because of Dana, because she runs the warehouse operation. She's been with me since day one. She was there like mixing products when it was more of a farm stand, by hand.
Julie: 26:22 That's amazing. So, 22nd, surgery.
Indie: 26:25 Yup. So I go into surgery.
Julie: 26:27 How long was the surgery?
Indie: 26:29 God, I don't know. I think like eight hours.
Julie: 26:32 Yeah, a long time? I would imagine.
Indie: 26:33 It was a long surgery. And when I woke up I was able to see out of my left eye, completely.
Julie: 26:41 Wow.
Indie: 26:41 I'm like "Oh my god, I can see." And the nurse is like "Yes, you're awake." I'm like "That's great, but I wasn't able to see", and she's so cute.
Julie: 26:47 You're very sassy.
Indie: 26:50 Yes. She's like "I'm getting the doctor." And the entire surgical team comes in and I couldn't tell what was going on from their faces. Like "Oh my god, they went in and they biopsied it, and they couldn't do anything, or couldn't figure out what was going on." That's when the doctor took my hand and said "You're done. We got everything. Welcome to the rest of your life."
Julie: 27:11 Wow.
Indie: 27:13 I then asked if I could have a scotch, and he said "No." He also said no to a cigar. I was like "Cappuccino?" He's like "You're not eating or drinking anything for days." And yeah, I haven't stopped since.
Julie: 27:29 So that was your sign.
Indie: 27:31 That was my sign.
Julie: 27:32 So now, you obviously took that and you were like "Okay, I see it. The universe has spoken. I have listened. Here we go." That April, right? And you got the diagnosis in November, right?
Indie: 27:47 Yeah, November 4th. April 22nd.
Julie: 27:48 Five-ish months.
Indie: 27:50 Yup. After the surgery, many hours later, I think it was like 6:00 P.M. at night, I called this gentleman Matt who was helping me with my website, because I said "I'm not going to turn it on if I die."
Julie: 28:03 Right. That'd just be too morbid.
Indie: 28:05 But I was going to be ready to go. I was like "Okay, let's turn it on." I think it was May 26th or something like that. "Let's turn on in a month." He's like "Did you have surgery?" "Yup, I'm ready." I literally woke up ready to live. I had closure with everybody before I went into surgery. I closed up loose ends with everybody I could've possibly ... It was crazy.
Julie: 28:30 Horrible.
Indie: 28:30 I mean ex-boyfriends from high school. Just anybody who I might have untied-up moments with, I wanted to have closure with in a great way, because I knew if I woke up I would wake up to this incredible energy, and if I didn't wake up nobody had anything with me. So when I woke up I was like "Let's hit the ground running." Of course, I thought that when you open up a website then all a sudden orders flood in.
Julie: 29:00 If you build it they will come?
Indie: 29:01 Yeah. That's not what happened. My mom ordered. My sister, my aunt. It did that. It was not the UPS commercial where they're like "Oh my god, how are we going to handle all this?" So it was a little bit more organic than that. I did, not trade shows, but like farmers market type of things, and like holiday markets and bizarres. Then it was crazy. It was just one-by-one. I was in one store in Mount Kisco, and then my best friend introduced me to this woman Rebecca who became my business partner as well. She understood sales, so she was really helping with that side and getting the stores onboard and marketing and all that. It kind of took off. Everyone said "How did you do this?" The truth is I sold all my jewelry to fund this.
Julie: 29:54 Oh my gosh!
Indie: 29:54 Yeah. My parents took away my key to the vault. I still don't have access to anything of the family's. I think they were afraid that I would sell something. I sold all my jewelry. I then emptied out my entire 401K. This happened before I went into surgery. I figured I couldn't take it with me, so-
Julie: 30:16 Put it into something.
Indie: 30:17 I really believed in what I was doing. At that point I would say failure wasn't an option, and now in hindsight I hate that word failure. So I don't like to use that word, but let's put it this way, it not happening was not an option, because I don't think failure is a negative thing. I think that it's always a learning.
Julie: 30:38 Opportunity?
Indie: 30:39 Yeah. I do. I really do.
Julie: 30:41 So you sold all your jewelry, and this allowed you to invest in like a facility to be able to ... How does that work?
Indie: 30:47 Oh, I did not have that much jewelry.
Julie: 30:48 Or was it the 750-square foot garden?
Indie: 30:52 So the jewelry was to buy oils and bottles, and ingredients and some tools, and have professional photography taken. All that kind of stuff. Speak to people early on, an accountant on "How do I set this up?" Etc. So that's what that money was originally for. Then as we started to grow I was like "Oh, I'm going to need a lot more money than that." So I then emptied my 401K.
Julie: 31:27 Okay, gosh. So how long was that? So you sold jewelry still sometime in 09?
Indie: 31:32 08, end of 08.
Julie: 31:33 So in December?
Indie: 31:34 Yeah. Well, probably no. Probably at the beginning of 09.
Julie: 31:37 Then when did you then have to go into your 401K?
Indie: 31:41 That was still in 09.
Julie: 31:44 Okay. So still there?
Indie: 31:46 Yeah.
Julie: 31:47 So 09 was a big year.
Indie: 31:49 Yes. It was very expensive year. Then obviously there was credit cards and whatnot. Then we did friends and family at 20000 here, etc.
Julie: 32:03 Was there ever a moment where you started to doubt, or where you were like "Oh my god"?
Indie: 32:08 Of course. Come on!
Julie: 32:09 In 09 where it was like ... jewelry or 401K, like credit cards, you're like "Oh god."
Indie: 32:14 That didn't deter me.
Julie: 32:16 No?
Indie: 32:16 No, those things didn't deter me. I really believed that we were onto something, and the people who surrounded us really believed that what we were doing was the right thing. It wasn't until we were much bigger, and I would say in the 2013 that I was like "Oh, what are we doing?" Like we had to put everything in boxes. At that point we had also hired someone who was our creative director, who's still with me to this day, who's our creative director. It was like "Oh my god, can we do this? Are we nuts? How are we going to do this?" There were "A-ha" moments along the way. Someone who we had trusted to do translation on our boxes and jars in French, because we were going to be EU certified.
Julie: 33:09 Yeah, I noticed that by the way.
Indie: 33:10 Yeah, French and English. And by the way, I always formulated to that standard of safety. We found out that they actually used Google to translate. So all the boxes and bottles were wrong. So of course we had those moments where "Are we going to be able to do this?" But we were really lucky. Really, really lucky. The people who we had around us were supporting, and it wasn't until 2016 where I said "I can't do this anymore." I was burnt out. I had not taken a salary, like a real salary since my tapestry HBO days, because in those HBO days I was a looking down the barrel of a child who's going to want to go to college soon. I'm like "What are we doing, and how are we going to scale this?" And I realized, more importantly, I was doing all the accounting, which I don't love. I hated.
Julie: 34:20 Despite your training?
Indie: 34:21 Exactly. I was doing all the things that I didn't enjoy.
Julie: 34:29 The things that wasn't why you started it in the first place.
Indie: 34:31 I wasn't doing, and I said "I can't do this." I will never forget, and I'm woo woo, I was like "Universe, send something. I need help."
Julie: 34:41 "Help me", yeah.
Indie: 34:43 I'm a practicing Buddhist, so I truly believe in putting things out to the universe, and there's so many stories, like sageing the office and anthropology emailing me "We're interested in you." Like all those things. But I said "Universe, I need a sign, something." And we'd been approached many times by angel investors and VC, private equity, etc., and I knew we really weren't there yet. And there was no one that I had met that I said "This is somebody who I think I can get into bed with long term", because that's what it is, you are basically marrying them.
Indie: 35:23 Then I will never forget, again, it's one of those dates, July 14th 2016, I get an email from this woman, Lori Perella Krebs, came in, and I think it was a Friday, Thursday or Friday, and she says who she is and that she works with this PA firm and that she found me in Follain and loved the packaging. Then read the story, and something drew her to reach out to me, and do I have any time to speak? She just tried the email, like "Does Indielee.com work?" And I saw it, and I can't tell you what happened, but I was like "Yeah, I'm available now. Do you want to talk?"
Julie: 36:06 Yeah, instantly.
Indie: 36:08 Two hours on the phone with her, and I just knew. Then we met in New York a couple months later. Then we started kind of work dating. Then we were like "Okay. This seems like its something.
Julie: 36:25 It's good.
Indie: 36:26 And then term sheets. Then yeah, in May of 2017 we were invested in by Ancora Holdings, and that's Lori Perella Krebs, Nicky Kinnaird, who is founder of Space NK. Lori was the CO of Fekkai. Just these two powerhouses in beauty. Then when Winona Capital, and they invested in us. And my life changed.
Julie: 36:51 Again.
Indie: 36:52 ... again. In the most magical, incredible, beautiful "I can't believe it" way.
Julie: 37:00 So explain what happened to you after this investment. It was a burden off obviously.
Indie: 37:06 Oh my gosh! It was so funny, they said "Well, we want financial control." I was like "Take it."
Julie: 37:14 "Yes, please."
Indie: 37:14 And they said "Well, you're going to probably have a hard time with this. You realize other people are going to be doing the checks." I go "Oh no, no, no. I assure you, I will not have a problem with this." It's so funny, because everyone's like "No, no, no." "Done." Never [inaudible 00:37:31] Obviously I review financials and stuff like that, but oh no, no, I had no problem giving that part up. Now we had the people and the infrastructure to make my dream come true.
Julie: 37:45 Right, and you could go back to-
Indie: 37:47 What I wanted to do, which is educating and empowering, and creating products again, and being able to have a support system to bring it to the stores. As we were working on the deal I'd already been in conversations with Bluemercury prior to that, and I was like, Rebecca and I, "How are we going to handle this?" We didn't have a sales team. Then Nordstrom came knocking, and it was just perfect, because then I had an entire sales team. Everything just came in. We had operations. So I wasn't trying to figure out how many bottles we're going to need and production forecasting. I was literally Peter to Paul and riding off the seat of my pants. It was really great. Two weeks after signing the deal I got a paycheck.
Julie: 38:41 Oh my god!
Indie: 38:43 I hadn't seen what that looked like in over 10 years. But most importantly I had this team who had my back and that truly believed in the same mission and were now bringing this ... I get emotional thinking about it. People have my back.
Julie: 39:03 That's great.
Indie: 39:04 And we're a family. I truly can say I love every person on my team, and I would do anything to help them be happy in life.
Julie: 39:15 So those are the dots, kind of going back to where I was saying. What I always find interesting, and that's why I always like to start with family, and it's cliché, but I do believe we're products of our nurture. Certainly nature plays a role, but we are products of our nurture, and you had sort of this idyllic family life growing up and you're wanting to stay there, family importance, and you've created now yourself a family, but your idea of your dad and prepping yourself to take over a small business, this entrepreneurial, and your mom, "I could never have the patience for educating", and yet you just stated your mission is education.
Indie: 39:54 I know. We laugh now about it. It is. It comes full circle.
Julie: 39:58 It does come full circle. There's something really great when we're able to, I think, tap into that, and you've done that in such a marvelous way.
Indie: 40:07 Thank you.
Julie: 40:08 As I said at the beginning, I was super embarrassed, "Indie came in this morning", and I was like "Okay, I'm super embarrassed, but I went on and I went to third-party reviews-
Indie: 40:15 Which I love.
Julie: 40:15 ... about all your products and I bought A, B, C, D, E. My son, he loves stuff. What should I give him?"
Indie: 40:21 No, but that's what I love.
Julie: 40:24 It's amazing to be able to-
Indie: 40:26 This is what I love to do. To now not have to worry about how am I going to pay for the fulfillment house, and instead-
Julie: 40:34 Focus.
Indie: 40:35 ... I can focus on sitting here with you and having this conversation, or doing things on Instagram and connecting with the community. I was blessed, blessed, to just be a keynote speaker at American Cancer Society, which I was like "You know I don't have cancer", and they were like "No, no, no. Tell your story about thriving." And talking about leaning into fear, and talking about supporting yourself with people who want to help shine light on your strengths and not try to dim it. That's what I love. That's what gets me excited to get up. Oh my gosh, in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would speak at South By Southwest last year? No. But it's just these opportunities that now I can do and really connect with people to help them make healthier choices, whether it's in their skincare routine, or it's realizing that sometimes life throws you lemons but you can make lemon Jello, and how do you do that?
Julie: 41:34 I love lemon Jello, not lemonade, so much better.
Indie: 41:37 Well, duh.
Julie: 41:38 So much better. Love that, and I love your story, because look, my goal here is I want people to be able to hear from successful people and see that. I haven't met a person yet who it's like they planned it and it went exactly right and they didn't have-
Indie: 41:57 Where would the fun be in that, honestly?
Julie: 41:59 It just doesn't work that way, and the thing is, is that you obviously had these massive issues between R.A. and this thing in your brain, and you turned it into, we say like "Your mess is your message", you've turned this into that for yourself, but even when you did that you still had [inaudible 00:42:17]
Indie: 42:16 Of course.
Julie: 42:18 That's the thing, right?
Indie: 42:20 Listen, is there a perfect road to whatever success ... and success can be defined in so many different ways for every person-
Julie: 42:25 Of course.
Indie: 42:25 ... but is there a perfect road? Maybe for very select few. I don't know. But I have to say "Where's the fun in that?" You don't learn from your successes, you learn from mistakes. You learn from these roadblocks. You learn from the chaos. That's where the joy of life can really be from if you take the chance and to really look at it this way. Instead of looking at it like "Oh ...", and don't get me wrong, I have bad days, like I realized my French was Google Translate. I was not a happy person, but how are you going to fix it? And you just got to believe in the process.
Julie: 42:59 And use these, and use them not as an excuse to give up, but an excuse to just push forward.
Indie: 43:06 Yeah, you pivot and you push forward on it, and I think that's what makes life so special and interesting, like you don't know what's going to come from one day to the next. Listen, I truly believe from contrast comes clarity. So from this amazing things can happen.
Julie: 43:23 Well, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming to share your story. I'm a convert. So I'm just excited. I'm, first of all, inspired by your story, but just excited about just the goodness that comes out of what you do every day.
Indie: 43:38 Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.