Listen in as Carol Kruse, former CMO at ESPN and Cambia Health Solutions, shares how a small town girl from Pennsylvania who loves national parks, the outdoors and sports, rocked corporate America, found her way to Oregon, and now finds joy in the most incredible ways.

Podcast Transcript:

Julie Roehm: Hello, everybody. I am here today with Carol Kruse. Carol is the former SVP and chief marketing officer at ESPN and Cambia Health Solutions. She's currently independent board member director at Valvoline Inc., and an investor and an advisor at Oregon Venture Fund. She's also spent, and she's here drinking, I'll attest to those who are listening in, a Coke. She was there for 10 years at the Coca Cola company serving as [00:00:30] the senior vice president of Global Digital Marketing and the vice president of North America Interactive Marketing. But she got there, it was an interesting way I found. So, she had, early in her career, founded a company called Rocket Cash back in 1999. And that was later purchased by Coca Cola in 2001, so that kicked off your Coke career. So she was there, as I mentioned, for 10 years and now is active in helping kickstart other businesses [00:01:00] through that Oregon Venture Fund, which is amazing. So thank you for coming and welcome.

Carol Kruse: My pleasure. I was excited to do this.

Julie Roehm: This is really fun. This has been... It's a work of passion for me and I love being able to share the stories, these personal stories, with the audience. So one accolade that I didn't mention in your introduction was the fact that you were CMO of Tough Mudder.

Carol Kruse: Yes.

Julie Roehm: Because it wasn't in your official bio, [00:01:30] but I do know about it and I just have to ask, one, how did that happen? And two, did you ever do a Tough Mudder?

Carol Kruse: Okay. You know when you have those life regrets. I haven't done a Tough Mudder yet. When I was interviewing, I thought, "If I'm going to go there, I want to see an event." And so, I caught the last event of the season, which is in central Florida, and that was in October. And I literally, I watched Saturday and I was so [00:02:00] enthralled, impressed, I wanted to do it. The athlete in me was like, "I'm ready to go." But I didn't have any gear. I didn't bring-

Julie Roehm: Why does everybody think you have to train for this? Did you just jump into that? Seems a little crazy.

Carol Kruse: Of course you should train. But I'm still like, "I want to do this." So afterwards I was really in the middle of nowhere, central Florida. So there was a Walmart. So I went to Walmart that evening, and I thought, "I'm going to get sneakers and shorts or leggings and something." They literally had no clothes my size, because [00:02:30] they were having winter clothes then because it's winter.

Julie Roehm: Winter in Florida.

Carol Kruse: In Florida.

Julie Roehm: Sure.

Carol Kruse: So, then I'm like, "I'll just go to boys'." Because, girls', I can't wear girls' clothes, but I can wear a boy's... I can't remember what they would go, 14 or 16 or something.

Julie Roehm: Right. Yeah.

Carol Kruse: Nope. They were all much bigger than me.

Julie Roehm: Bigger and taller.

Carol Kruse: And so, I could not find any clothes at Walmart I could wear to do it. And that probably was a really awesome thing.

Julie Roehm: Because it was a sign, maybe.

Carol Kruse: It maybe was a sign that I might have hurt [00:03:00] myself because I really wouldn't have been ready for it.

Julie Roehm: Well, it's fine.

Carol Kruse: So, I didn't. And then I stayed... I really was only there for five or six months, and then I left before the season started.

Julie Roehm: Okay. Well, it's always something you can go back and do. I've seen them, they look crazy.

Carol Kruse: They are the most inspiring thing, because you actually have to help each other out. You can't do it. Almost no one can do it without getting some assistance, and then people help each other out. So, it's [00:03:30] not like a race and you get a place, it's not actually timed. It's about completion, and the whole focus of it is teamwork, and that you do it with other people. Whether you go as a team or the other people help you, that's just very different than some of the other similar events, where it's all about your time and everything.

Carol Kruse: Now, there are people who want to hit a certain time or they try to beat their time last, but it is not about that.

Julie Roehm: Personal best, I would say.

Carol Kruse: It's really about the experience and that team togetherness experience.

Julie Roehm: It's cool. Yeah, it is.

Carol Kruse: [00:04:00] It's really cool.

Julie Roehm: It's cool to see.

Carol Kruse: And really hard.

Julie Roehm: Oh, of that I have no doubt.

Carol Kruse: Yeah.

Julie Roehm: So, in your background, though, this love for the Tough Mudder may have spawned from your love of the outdoors. I know you shared a little about your history growing up and what your family did. Can you share that?

Carol Kruse: So, I do love the outdoors. We were a national park family.

Julie Roehm: What does that mean, a national park family?

Carol Kruse: So, a national park family is a family that, when [00:04:30] you go on vacations, you go to national parks. And my father had been a national park family. His family, that's where they went. And I grew up like-

Julie Roehm: Is this like National Lampoon's and you get in the station wagon and you go around?

Carol Kruse: A little bit. It is a little bit like that. We never went to Wally world. When I grew up, my dad was a professor at Penn State University, so we grew up in central Pennsylvania and every four summers he'd take the summer off. We would hop in the Pontiac and we would hightail it as fast as possible across the middle of the [00:05:00] country to the west. And then we would spend a couple months going to different national parks. And so we'd go to Yellowstone and Grand Teton. We'd pick a part of the country. So we might do Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana. Or one time we did southern Utah and Arizona. And we just went hiking and we stayed at the big old lodges, and sometimes we'd swim in the river and fish and maybe one time we'd ride horses. And so I just love that outdoors.

Carol Kruse: [00:05:30] And then I also did a lot of sports. And so, you mix that outdoors and that athlete and that sense of teamwork. And so, that's why Tough Mudder seemed like it would be great to do. It's just there's just that competitiveness of yourself as well. It's just there's a lot that is very appealing.

Julie Roehm: Oh, I feel you about that.

Carol Kruse: Yeah.

Julie Roehm: So, this middle of Pennsylvania, relatively small town girl, it's a college, a big college [00:06:00] town. But you then made your way to Connecticut, because we had a conversation about that. And you went to a boarding school there.

Carol Kruse: Yes. Yeah.

Julie Roehm: So from this small town girl and this private girl. What was that like?

Carol Kruse: So, there was one high school in the town I grew up, State College High School, perfectly fine high school. My mom grew up in Boston, North Shore Boston. And so she found State College, Pennsylvania a bit provincial. [00:06:30] And the world revolves around Penn state football, and I am a huge Penn State football and college football fan. That said, my mom wanted me to get a little broader experience. And so, I went to boarding school, Kent School in Kent, Connecticut. It was fabulous. I loved it. I got so much out of it. I mean, not only a good education, but I was 13 years old when I went, because I'm young for my grade, and I was the country bumpkin. I'm just telling you, there were kids from New York and there were kids from overseas [00:07:00] and much more sophisticated or families that had way more money than me. And thank goodness we all wore a uniform or we basically dress-

Julie Roehm: The great equalizer.

Carol Kruse: Yes.

Julie Roehm: The ugly uniforms.

Carol Kruse: Exactly. No, they were fine. Or we'd basically dress out of the L.L.Bean catalog anyway.

Julie Roehm: Oh, okay. Sure.

Carol Kruse: And so, it was fine. It's just there were moments when I realized, "Wow, I am- "

Julie Roehm: The Hogwarts of the girls schools.

Carol Kruse: And there was a girls' campus and a boys' campus four miles apart at the time. Yeah. I just kind of laughed at myself because I realized [00:07:30] I was the country bumpkin.

Julie Roehm: Yeah. That's fun. So, one of the premises of my conversation that I like to have are these, I call them these holy shit moments, these hoshi moms or hoshi moes. And when we were talking in preparation for this, we spoke about being this small town girl in this poshy, high end, private girl setting. And I said, "Did anything [00:08:00] happen in there?" Because you've done such crazy, amazing things with your life. I'm not even-

Carol Kruse: Not just your career, thank you.

Julie Roehm: Your life. And I always think that there are a series of these kinds of moments that happen.

Carol Kruse: Yes.

Julie Roehm: What was the first one that you recall?

Carol Kruse: Well, I got to tell you, Kent school, and whenever you do your charitable giving, people completely over index on my high school. People are like, "What?" But, I got to say, Kent made me who I am today. I mean, I think my parents probably [00:08:30] raised me to be... My mom, especially, a very self confident. My dad, you can do or be anything you want. But when I was younger I did stuff to please my parents. I did well in school to please my parents. That's really was my motivation for most of my life, including through high school, through Kent.

Carol Kruse: But Kent, you go away at 13, you live in a dorm, you do your laundry. That's young to be away. [00:09:00] It was really strong academically, really strong sports. And it brought out leadership skills that I just really don't think I knew. And nor maybe even recognized myself, because I didn't feel like a leader there because I was still this country bumpkin kid. And there's some really wealthy people and beautiful girls and-

Julie Roehm: Great pedigrees.

Carol Kruse: International. There was one of the dictator's kids went there as a matter of fact. [00:09:30] That's what it was. But it brought out these leadership skills. And I was selected to be soccer team captain. I was selected to be on the newspaper, one of the newspaper editors. And then they have this big night where they're selecting dorm prefects. It's kind of like Harry Potter, the dorm prefects, which is like the top leadership roles. And this isn't your peers voting. This is the headmaster and the other teachers [00:10:00] there.

Julie Roehm: And what are they looking for?

Carol Kruse: I don't really know, at the time. And there wasn't much you could do, necessarily, there was no campaigning.

Julie Roehm: Yes, right.

Carol Kruse: It just was-

Julie Roehm: Throwing your hat in the ring or your name.

Carol Kruse: No. And, in fact, I don't even think I would've had the confidence to throw my hat in the ring, to be perfectly honest. And then that night you're all in the chapel and the headmaster's reading off names and he said my name as the dorm prefect. I'm like, "Hoshi moe."

Julie Roehm: Wow. Yes. Wow.

Carol Kruse: I'm like, "Wow." [00:10:30] And I walk out. You know, you're walking up, the entire school's there, you're up on stage to do this ceremony thing.

Julie Roehm: Wow.

Carol Kruse: And this was this like, "Huh. Clearly I have these leadership skills between the soccer captain and the newspaper editor and now being a dorm prefect that I didn't know I had."

Julie Roehm: So, it's interesting-

Carol Kruse: But other people saw it in me, but I did not realize it.

Julie Roehm: By your own admission, you were already captain of these things. So it [00:11:00] could have been there, but it took this un-requested, out of the blue, nomination or acknowledgement that you were this person, for it to click in you.

Carol Kruse: It did. And then, when you do that, teachers or administrators and people were like, "Of course." They were like, "Of course." And I was like, "Wow." I don't know. I just didn't see it. But it did change my thinking then, in college. I didn't want to be that person who peaked in high school. There's a lot [00:11:30] of people. Sorry, but-

Julie Roehm: There's movies about that, right?

Carol Kruse: Yes. And you meet people who they're still... They're 45 and they're talking about their high school football days or whatever. And I realized then that kind of changed my mindset also of this isn't all about pleasing my parents. It gave me that confidence of this is about what can I achieve?

Julie Roehm: What can I do?

Carol Kruse: Yeah.

Julie Roehm: And so, again, we talked about your career and how that might have been one of the catalysts that [00:12:00] gave you the confidence and the courage to go and do these things in very male driven industries.

Carol Kruse: Yes, that's true.

Julie Roehm: Tough Mudder. Okay. We talked about that. But ESPN.

Carol Kruse: ESPN. Yeah.

Julie Roehm: We've both worked a lot with these. Very male dominated. But you went in, and not only went in, but you just wowed them.

Carol Kruse: Yeah. I think that was my mom, honestly.

Julie Roehm: Really?

Carol Kruse: Oh yeah. My mom was ahead of her time, I will say. She didn't live this crazy... [00:12:30] She was not out there burning her bra in women's lib and whatever. She just felt that she needed to always be able to take care of yourself. And I remember her always saying, "You always have to be able to take care of yourself." And it's the power to walk away, and that you have money to walk away, the power to walk away, and just always. And my dad also, "You can do anything." And I think that started-

Julie Roehm: What drove you to ESPN, though?

Carol Kruse: Well, I love sports. You don't grow up [00:13:00] in State College, Pennsylvania and not love college football. I mean, five year old girls know the game of football. And so I grew up in a sporty family. My dad loves football, he loves golf. My brother played soccer, so I played soccer. In fact, when I first started playing soccer in eighth grade, I had to play on a boys team, because they didn't have girl's soccer.

Julie Roehm: I did the same.

Carol Kruse: Right. And so, I was good at sports and I always did sports and I watched sports and that's what my family did together. And [00:13:30] so then early in my career, I was at Clorox, and I did certain sports sponsorships. And then, when you're in Silicon Valley, sports is not a really big thing. So at that point that was just my own love of sports, because Silicon Valley isn't so sports focused. And then when you're at Coca-Cola, except for maybe major league baseball, I did so much sports marketing, which was fabulous because I love all those sports. And then I did global [00:14:00] sports marketing with Women's World Cup right now.

Julie Roehm: Oh, I know. I was just going to say. Oh my gosh, are you not so excited?

Carol Kruse: This is my favorite, every four years. I love this period of time. I get nothing done. I do nothing because I'm watching soccer. And we got to take our family, my husband and kids, to the Women's World Cup eight years ago.

Julie Roehm: Wow.

Carol Kruse: Anyway, it was great. So, I just loved it. And I did a lot of sports marketing. And so, when I got a call about the CMO role at ESPN, I was like, "Oh my God, [00:14:30] dream job."

Julie Roehm: Please, yes. Sign me up.

Carol Kruse: And I just knew it would be harder as a woman, but I didn't care.

Julie Roehm: Well, to that end, and I'm sure, to some extent, being a woman in an industry like that, you got to set the tone of what it meant to be able to be a powerful woman in a male dominated industry like that.

Carol Kruse: Yeah.

Julie Roehm: So, curious, going back to that leadership, that moment that you had. Looking back now, and you think about the things that are most memorable or most meaningful [00:15:00] to you. Outside of the accolades, I get that. But more the personal kinds of things. What stands out for you in those industries about that connection, that kind of fulfillment of that leadership moment in you?

Carol Kruse: Yeah. So I have like five ideas and put them in some rational order that makes sense.

Julie Roehm: Yeah, throw them all out.

Carol Kruse: So, one thing is, which I actually only learned two years ago, that there's this whole study about leadership. And [00:15:30] I will tell you, I don't read business books, I don't read leadership books. I watch and I talk to people and I observe.

Julie Roehm: And you listen to podcasts.

Carol Kruse: And I listen to podcasts. Exactly. And there's a whole leadership thing about the role of vulnerability, which builds trust. And of course trust is core to leadership. Right? Okay. I just learned this two years ago. Didn't know that. But when I went into ESPN, first of all, you can't work there and fake sports knowledge.

Julie Roehm: [00:16:00] Sure.

Carol Kruse: So I had to go in and I had like 150 people on my team. I'm introducing myself. And one of the things I said is, "Look, I know college football, I know soccer, I know da da da." I am not a big basketball fan. And I said, "College or MBA." I did not grow up watching hoops. It's a sport I actually don't know about. So I'm going to need some people helping me learn about that sport. And it's just interesting [00:16:30] because that's that-

Julie Roehm: Vulnerability, trust.

Carol Kruse: Vulnerability and trust. And people knew that, "Oh, Carol's not going to bullshit us. Right. When she doesn't know something, she's going to tell you, and she's going to ask for help, and she's real, and she doesn't have to pretend that she's something she's not." And, sure enough, one of the most junior people who worked at ESPN, you work on different... Your brands aren't like Coke and Diet Coke, your brands are college [00:17:00] football, NBA, college hoops, et cetera.

Carol Kruse: And one of the most junior people on the NBA team reached out to me the next day, and he's like, "Hey, I'd love to teach you about the NBA. And let's just go to a Knicks game and I'll run it all through with you." And I'm like, "Great." So the other thing that happened is ESPN marketing, when I got there, was very hierarchical. And word got out by his boss's boss's boss, that VP, that [O'lou 00:17:26] had invited me to go to the basketball game because he was going to teach me about NBA. [00:17:30] And he's like, "Well, you're not going to go with the most junior person are you? Do you want me to go too?" And I was like, "No, I'm absolutely going to the junior person who was the first to respond and asked me. Of course I'm going with that person."

Julie Roehm: Right.

Carol Kruse: "Why would you ask?" But so that also made it very clear that this hierarchy was not anything I had any interest in.

Julie Roehm: Yep. And that it wasn't going to predetermine who you thought was-

Carol Kruse: No. In fact-

Julie Roehm: Who's worthy or good.

Carol Kruse: Hopefully, every other junior [00:18:00] person realized that I wanted to hear from them just as much as I wanted to hear from anyone else. And I think that really helped the team, and I did kind of flatten out the organization then. And, yes, of course the junior people are going to present the creative strategy. Of course they are.

Julie Roehm: So you were really helping to shift the culture.

Carol Kruse: Yeah. So some of that is that I think it's earned leadership, right? I prefer earned leadership versus [00:18:30] entitled leadership.

Julie Roehm: You had spoken to me a little bit about how, it might have been when you were leaving Cambia, I believe, and you had one of those moments as well. So, in a similar vein, but this was more maybe centered by more women. I don't think it was only women, but I think it was-

Carol Kruse: Yes.

Julie Roehm: And the kinds of feedback you got when you left. Please share that.

Carol Kruse: Absolutely. So I was at Cambia Health Solutions for four [00:19:00] years as a CMO, big $10 billion non-for-profit, very interesting health solutions company. And I was very used to the leadership team being primarily men. That was my norm, so it didn't seem very different to me. But there had been a history I learned when I got there of when they got senior women, they didn't last very long. And I don't know the history of all that, but that either they didn't stay or they didn't like the culture or whatever.

Carol Kruse: [00:19:30] And so, I knew that and I knew that that was an impact and they had... The company was very good at getting feedback from employees and satisfaction surveys and then followup interviews that a lot of say mid-level women who were aspiring to move up did not feel like that was going to happen for them at that company. And so, the company, while I was there, did a really great job of bringing more women in and on the leadership team, which I thought was great. But when [00:20:00] they announced that the company was eliminating four senior executive roles , it was four men and myself. And so they did a going away, thank you thing.

Julie Roehm: Soiree.

Carol Kruse: Unbeknownst to me, everyone was calling it a wake.

Julie Roehm: Aw.

Carol Kruse: And everyone else was like, "This is so awkward." And I was like, "I actually thought it was kind of nice." But so the CEO [00:20:30] and the COO said some nice words, and then they invited other people. I had about 80 people in marketing, and a lot of the people there were on my team. It was a little unbalanced.

Julie Roehm: Lopsided.

Carol Kruse: But also a ton of women in the company. And already, before that, there were a lot of tears among the women as I was saying goodbye.

Julie Roehm: Right.

Carol Kruse: And so then when they ask a question, a very brave woman said, "Why is it that we're losing [00:21:00] yet another senior woman? Carol has done so much for the women in this company. She's so approachable. She's so involved with the women in this company. Why is that?" And I think it just took some of the leaders by surprise, that, "Oh, I didn't even think of the impact of yet another senior woman leaving." And that was not even remotely why at all. I absolutely understood the decision to eliminate these roles, and I was fine with it. But even if something [00:21:30] makes business sense, it doesn't necessarily make cultural sense.

Julie Roehm: That's right.

Carol Kruse: Right. Or you have to think about what that impact might be. So I still think they should have done what they did knowing it, but maybe, had they thought about it, they would have messaged things differently or something. But I'm still, I have all my mentee... I mentored a lot of women there, and I love mentoring women and young women and especially working moms.

Julie Roehm: I love this.

Carol Kruse: I am still mentoring many working [00:22:00] moms there.

Julie Roehm: Well, as you know, I've asked to join your fan club of mentor, because as a working mom, it is, I think... Look, there's many, many working mothers out there. But I think the further along you get in your career, at all phases, frankly, but the further along you get in your career, you end up at these crossroads and these various hoshi moe's that happened to you. So, now that your focus, you're [00:22:30] helping to build industry of the future. So in your advisory and investor capacity and helping women, but especially working moms, as you said, what is the pivot? What gave you that juxtaposition this time? So, the leadership, but now you're focused here. How'd that path manifest?

Carol Kruse: Well, I think many people, I hope, frankly, I guess, maybe they don't, [00:23:00] but I hope and I see it around me, they get to a point in a career where they get a lot of joy and they want to give back. And there were absolutely a lot of people who helped me along the way. And frankly, most of my mentors were men because I think I was at a disadvantage of negotiating my compensation or when I got new jobs. Thinking only as a woman, I wanted a male point of view. So I thought that was really helpful for me.

Carol Kruse: But it was, you know, there were times, it is hard to be [00:23:30] a working mom. And my mom gave me this gift of don't feel guilty. If you're going to feel guilty about everything, which most working moms feel guilty that they're not doing enough for their kids and their family and guilty when I leave work. I'm like, my mom, especially given that I was raised Catholic, was the anti guilt mom. Don't feel guilt about stuff.

Julie Roehm: That's amazing.

Carol Kruse: Don't feel guilt. And so, she's like, "You're going to do this. And I think it's amazing that women now can do [00:24:00] both, and can do both successfully. But don't feel guilty about it. And don't be afraid to ask for help." That was her advice. And so, women apologize a lot and they make a big deal of if they have to leave early for their kids. And I find there's so many amazing working dads. If they need to go pick up their kids or they're going to go home and make dinner, they just do it, and they don't explain it and they don't apologize, they just go do it, because that's what you do. That's life.

Carol Kruse: And so, I especially like [00:24:30] to help working moms realize you can do both, and sometimes there's trade-offs. But don't apologize and don't have to tell everyone everything you're doing all the time or apologize for leaving because of your kids either.

Julie Roehm: I was talking about how these moments, these great moments, they have this way of shifting our thinking and best laid plans, what we plan and God laughs. Right? And there are a series of them that [00:25:00] happened. From when you think about that moment when you were given that title of prefect, to today with that amazing career behind you. But now what you're doing in this more giving back role, both as an investor and as an advisor and a mentor. What is your vision? Because I think we can have many definitions of success. But what is your vision and what does success feel like? You know I hate the question, "What are you going to be in five years?" I don't want to know. I don't want to know. But [00:25:30] what is it that you hope for?

Carol Kruse: So, for years, especially when you're, again, you're working and you have these big jobs and you have a lot of people who need your time and then you have your family. I've always said my heart is really big and there's so much my heart wants to do for people, but I don't have the time to do it. And I realize that now that I haven't been working full time for, I don't know, five months or something. [00:26:00] Those things that my heart wants to do, I can actually do those things. And it is incredible. It's like this wow. So now it's like if I want to help startups and I want to help invest and help startups get going, and I have a fair amount of industry and expertise and experience and you are just a fresh set of eyes that I can help, that's great.

Julie Roehm: [inaudible 00:26:25].

Carol Kruse: I don't actually really care if I get compensated. It's just like I get joy from that. Right? [00:26:30] And just continuing to mentor a zillion women because, you know what, I like to help people in their career. And so, yeah, I don't work... Making money isn't my goal. Though, if I'm doing real professional work for a company, I expect to get paid.

Julie Roehm: Absolutely. And you won't apologize for it.

Carol Kruse: And I would never apologize for that. And I expect to get paid.

Julie Roehm: That's right. And you should.

Carol Kruse: But if I'm doing something from my heart to help people, I [00:27:00] expect nothing back.

Julie Roehm: Yeah. So your vision of success now looks like joy?

Carol Kruse: Joy.

Julie Roehm: Joy to yourself? Joy for others?

Carol Kruse: I go to yoga regularly. And for New Years, not this year, but last year, New Year's Day Yoga. The idea was to set an intention and what's your word for the year? And people were like, "Is it strength? Is it change? Is it power? Is it all this?" I was lying there like, "Oh God, no, I'm so exhausted. No, it's none of those things. [00:27:30] My word is joy or joyous." And so that's what I want to do, is things that bring me and other people joy.

Julie Roehm: I love it. What could be better?

Carol Kruse: It seems pretty good. Right?

Julie Roehm: It seems good. Joy to the world. I would love that.

Carol Kruse: And I'm not in that mamby pamby like world peace way.

Julie Roehm: No.

Carol Kruse: Because I'm a little way too practical and growth-oriented and all that stuff. I just mean joy with action.

Julie Roehm: I get it. No, a personal joy. What is fulfilling? Right?

Carol Kruse: Right. Or what can I do to help [00:28:00] other people achieve their dreams?

Julie Roehm: Because you've had such success and you can bring that to others.

Carol Kruse: And I had a lot of people help me along the way, and support me.

Julie Roehm: It feels good.

Carol Kruse: Yeah, it's good.

Julie Roehm: Well, Carol, this has been great.

Carol Kruse: Yes, I appreciate it.

Julie Roehm: Thank you so much for doing this.

Carol Kruse: Absolutely.

Julie Roehm: This is my, again, a little passion project for me and it's certainly been an honor to have you on here and share your story.

Carol Kruse: Thank you so much.

Julie Roehm: You're a great inspiration.

Carol Kruse: Well, you have your own amazing stories as well. So I hope someone is going to interview you.

Julie Roehm: Oh, well, maybe we'll do that.

Carol Kruse: Maybe we'll do a turnaround.

Julie Roehm: We'll maybe do a turnaround. I'll have to do that. I've got some friends [00:28:30] out there who maybe will help me do that. But we'll set that up.

Carol Kruse: There you go.

Julie Roehm: Thank you.

Carol Kruse: Thank you.

Julie Roehm: Appreciate it.