Transcript:

Julie:

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Conversational. My name is Julie Roehm and today my guest is Jessica Rhodes. Jessica is the leading expert on how to leverage podcast guesting for increased brand awareness. So it feels like I'm self-serving here by having an expert on how to help me increase my own brand awareness. She helps generate more leads and high profits. She's created the podcast booking industry in 2013 when she founded Interview Connections, which is the first and leading agency of its kind. Super impressive. Along with her business partner, Margy, and I don't know if I'm saying her name right.

Jessica:

Margy.

Julie:

Yeah, Margy. Is it Margy Feldhuhn? Feldhuhn?

Jessica:

Margy Feldhuhn.

Julie:

Huhn. Poor Margy. I'm just [crosstalk 00:00:48]-

Jessica:

I know.

Julie:

Margy, apologies. Margy Feldhuhn. Jessica has quickly scaled Interview Connections to over a million dollars in annual revenue with almost no direct marketing or advertising. And it's because of her team of in-house booking agents and the podcast powerhouses behind many of the successful entrepreneurs and businesses, including Allie Brown, Penny ... Perry Marshall. I almost said Penny, but Perry Marshall, however, USA Financial and more.

            So look, she's done a ton of really exciting things. She's had hundreds and hundreds of podcasts interviews, both as a guest and as a cohost of Rock the Podcast. She's acclaimed author of the book Interview Connections, How to Rock the Podcast from Both Sides of the Mic. And she's been featured speaker of Podcast Multimedia Expo and FinCon. So an active member of her community, Jessica also volunteers at her son's public school, mentors a 17-year-old girl in foster care and has nothing to do with the fact that her last name is exactly the same, she lives in Rhode Island with her husband, her two kids, Nathan and Lucy, and of course her cat, Kitten.

            So welcome to the podcast. I love the fact that we can segue immediately into your life and your [ho-shi-mos] by talking about the fact that you're actually ... It's sort of symbolic, it's biotic in that you're fostering somebody right now yourself, because as we start off with your childhood and your early days, that was kind of a part of who you were. If I remember correctly, you grew up right outside of Philly, is that right?

Jessica:

Yeah. I grew up in a suburb of Philadelphia. It's called Exton, Pennsylvania, and had a nice, big backyard. I'm one of four kids. I have a twin sister, so had a great childhood.

Julie:

That's amazing. Well, your twin sister, are you the older, the younger of the twins?

Jessica:

I'm four minutes older, very proud to say.

Julie:

Wow! That's actually a lot really in the twin world, isn't it?

Jessica:

Yeah. About four minutes older. Very wise in those extra four minutes.

Julie:

It's all totally different, right?

Jessica:

Yeah.

Julie:

What did your parents do growing up, out of curiosity?

Jessica:

So my mom had a long career in early childhood education working at the YMCA, and then she got her bachelor's in education and was a teacher. So she worked in early childhood education for a long time, across a variety of different schools. And my dad has always been a business man. He was head of franchising for Bike Line for a long time. And then when I was about 12 or 13, he lost his job. And that was right around the same time as 9/11. And then he got cancer. So there was kind of a whole crazy storm around that time. And so he was unemployed for a long time and then became an entrepreneur. So he started his own company when I was a teenager. And so he's been an entrepreneur for the last, I don't know, 15, 20 years, however long it's been since then.

Julie:

I mean, I can't imagine, 9/11 and were you still in Philly during that-

Jessica:

So we were still in Exton. I lived in the same house. We moved to that house when I was like six months old or something like that. And my parents moved out of that house well after I moved out. So we were in one home, never moved as a child, which I'm grateful for because I think that can be quite disruptive at different points in a childhood. So we were in the same home my whole life.

Julie:

Oh, that's amazing. Well, I have no idea what that's like. I lived in 12 States and twice as many cities. So I'm like-

Jessica:

Oh my gosh.

Julie:

So I'm just the opposite. I have no idea what it's like to live in the same place. So it's what you're used to. But going back to your family and that, sort of difficult time, during 9/11 and then your dad getting cancer and losing the job, and your mom, was she still teaching at the time?

Jessica:

Yeah. So my mom was teaching. I think she was assistant director of an early childhood education center. And then I believe at that time, she moved up. After my dad lost his job, he lost his job before 9/11, because I remember he lost his job and then was actively job hunting. At one point, we almost thought we were going to move to Florida. And I remember seeing photos of houses they were looking at, because he was close to getting offered a job in Florida. It was just like, "Oh, we're going to move to Florida and there's going to be pools and all this stuff." And then I think it was that job offer that rescinded their offer after 9/11 because every company was like, "We don't know what's happening right now." And then shortly after that is when he was diagnosed with skin cancer.

Julie:

Oh, that's awful. Did he survive that battle?

Jessica:

Yes. Yes, he did. He is with us today and has been cancer free for a long time. So very, very grateful for that. I don't remember exactly how long the battle was. I remember the day that he had surgery because I went to stay at my friend's house and had a sleepover because my parents didn't want us all around for whatever it was like after coming home from surgery, all drugged up. They didn't want us to see dad in that state. So I remember going to a friend's house so we would kind of be protected from whatever that experience was. But it was definitely really rocked his world.

            And it really inspired a big lifestyle change, because I remember he would lay out ... we had a pool in the backyard and he would lay out there baking in the sun every summer. And now he's got a shirt, sunscreen and we're all very aware of the importance of being protected from the sun now.

Julie:

It's a hard way to have to learn the lesson, I know.

Jessica:

Yeah, exactly.

Julie:

I know your youth was really interesting, and as all of our youths are very formative, but you ... I think so much of these stories that you have about your youth, certainly they qualify as holy shit moments, but they're also ... can so much form kind of the things that you've done. I know that you said that your mom, I know she's a big influence in your life, but she was kind of connecting the dots with what I mentioned in your bio about the foster child that you mentor today. That you had a lot of interaction with foster kids when you were growing up too.

Jessica:

Yeah. So when I was a kid, my mom being in early childhood education was always, and is still always so passionate about helping children. With everything happening in the world, her number one priority, now it's grandkids, are my two kids and my niece and my nephew. She is always focused on the kids and how is this impacting the kids? And so as a kid, she was really involved with an organization called Fresh Air Fund. And so every summer for many years she was ... I think it was a volunteer-led organization. So she was really active. I don't know if she was on the board, but she did a lot of organizing with that.

            And so what would happen is it would bring kids from New York City into different suburbs. So we would have these kids that would come and stay with us for like six weeks. So it was sort of like their summer vacation. They weren't foster kids. They had families and everything, but it was just their way of getting out of the city and experiencing a totally different lifestyle, from being in the city to then seeing fireflies at night and going to the beach and just having a totally different life experience.

            And it was great for the kids because they just had their eyes opened up to a new kind of world, even just a few hours away. And it was great for us because I mean, like I said, I'm in a family of six, I've got a twin sister and two older brothers, we grew up in a three bedroom house. It was just like-

Julie:

How many bathrooms though? That's the big question.

Jessica:

We had two-and-a-half bathrooms. So there was like one full bathroom for mom and dad and then a full bathroom for the kids. And then we had a half bath on the first floor. But it is tight. We had a really big backyard. There was a lot of time outside. But to have that size house and then bring an extra kid during the summer was like, it really ... the impact it had on me was, we don't need a lot of space to ... and it sounds so cheesy, but we don't need a lot of space to have a lot of love. Never said that before, but as I'm talking about it, it really did have an impact. I've never really desired to have a huge house.

            The house we're in right now, also three bedrooms. I've got two kids though, not four. But I'm very content and happy. I've never desired to have tons of tons of space, because it's never what I ... I was never taught that that spot was needed or even what was necessarily desired by my parents. In fact, they sold their house and live on a boat now. So they really downsized.

Julie:

That's amazing. That's hysterical. On the East Coast?

Jessica:

Yeah. So their home port is in Maryland in the Chesapeake Bay and they sail up and down the East Coast through the Intracoastal Waterway. So when they sold my childhood home, they moved onto a boat.

Julie:

Wow.

Jessica:

Yeah, they downsized in a really interesting way. And it was just through the experience of them just giving even when they didn't feel, or it didn't seem like there was much to give, there was always time and love and attention that was given. And it was just having those kids that totally different background and lifestyle to us just join our family for six weeks. It really had a big impact on me.

Julie:

Were you doing this when your dad was unemployed and you guys were tight on money still?

Jessica:

Yeah. This was before my dad lost his job. So I don't know if we brought many more kids to stay with us after my dad lost his job. So I think it was before that. There might've been some overlap, but I know it was when we were between the ages of five and probably 10 or something like that.

Julie:

Because you mentioned, and I was asking because you're going back to these family values and what's important and what you ended up doing and how you were doing it, I think is important. But you'd mentioned you had to learn through your dad's unemployment the value of the dollar, what it meant and you weren't coddled as a child.

Jessica:

Mm-hmm (negative). No. Yeah, exactly. When I was 11, I started babysitting. 11 or 12. So it's right as soon as I could. And I remember there was a family across the street that had a baby and I started babysitting for them, and I have memories. I can just picture it in my mind, memories when I was babysitting for that family. And when I put the baby down for bed at night, I actually kind of ... I'm like, "Wow, I cannot believe they let an 11 year old babysit their baby." This was at the time when there were cribs that were slanted up. They don't do that anymore. Cribs are all flat, but back then there was like this time where they had cribs that slanted up.

            I remember I put the baby's head on the wrong side of the crib and I had no idea. I had no idea and the baby wouldn't stop crying. And so finally I'd probably call my mom or something like, "The baby won't stop crying." And they're like, "Yeah, you put the baby on ..." I'm like, Oh my God. I cannot believe they put an 11 year old in charge.

            But I remember when I would put the baby down ... that was a totally irrelevant tangent. It's just that was probably burned in my brain. Like, "Wow, you-"

Julie:

That's hysterical. No, kind of going into just your ... you had talked about having to earn money. I just think as a child, kind of going from sort of being the quintessential Midwestern or committed middle, East coaster family in sort of the suburbia and then having kind of everything ... your dad's sick. And then the unemployment and having to work was probably very ... probably had a big emotional toll on you, I would think.

Jessica:

Yeah. And so when I would babysit, I would go just above and beyond and put the dishes away at night and stuff like that. And this was even before my dad lost his job. And so even though it was before he was unemployed, we never ... and I don't know exactly what my parents' bank account looked like before he lost his job. I'm sure it was fine, but we were never ... it never seemed like we were super well off because we weren't just handed $20 a week allowances. I mean, they also had four kids.

            And I just remember that you did have to work for it. And I also know that my parents did such a good job of really protecting me and my siblings from whatever trauma they were experiencing through the unemployment and the debt.

            And I mean, the side jobs that my dad took on, it really takes something to swallow your pride and do some of the jobs that he did as a middle age, 40-something-year-old man with four kids, he would stock shelves at Target at night, overnight, like on the third shift so he could be trying to build his business during the day. He was a courier at one point. I remember there was one trip you had to take where he had to, as a courier, bring a cooler of pig blood or something. These couriers are hired to transport really random stuff. I think it spilled in his car. And it was just like rock bottom moments.

            And I remember seeing that and just the impact, I don't know how much I comprehend it at the time, but certainly remembering that as an adult now, just looking back and saying, "When you have a family to support, you will do literally anything to make it work and to make ends meet." And I just remember seeing that. And I think part of that impact was when I got pregnant with my first child and wanted to be home. This is nowhere near having pig blood spill in the back of your car. But I became a virtual assistant and was doing like $15 an hour virtual assistant freelance work doing really just basic administrative work when I had worked my way up to director level at my nonprofit and was really ... very always been career ambitious.

            And then I was like, I'm checking links on a website, but this was for my family, this was for my kids. And I really got that from seeing my dad stock shelves at Target.

Julie:

Well, and it makes more sense ... because I happen to know that you got into acting and I just wonder sometimes if the ... look, and this is just my own point of view, people who go into acting and find a huge connection there that sometimes it's also because it's a release from some of the realities that are going-

Jessica:

Oh my God. Yeah.

Julie:

... [crosstalk 00:15:51]. I mean, does that resonate with you? Because I know-

Jessica:

Yeah.

Julie:

... [crosstalk] at a young age, right?

Jessica:

Yeah. And actually you saying that, I'm like, "Wow, I never really made that conscious connection." But I did do theater all through my childhood and I was very involved with all of the plays at school and the musicals.

            And I'm sure there was a lot of that totally going into another world when I would go to play practice and rehearsal for the musical. It was a total escape from reality, total escape from reality. And I'm sure that had a lot to do with my ability to not be super negatively impacted by what my parents were going through. Because they kept life pretty normal for us kids throughout that all. And I think having those activities, like for me, it was theater and dreaming big.

            I mean, I dreamt of being on Broadway and I had that dream and that goal for pretty long time until college when I kind of had that dose of reality and was like, "Okay, let's switch to communication."

Julie:

You went starting in theater, right?

Jessica:

I did. It was my dad that actually took me to a lot of my auditions for ... I went into applying to college and all of that thinking I was going to major in musical theater. And I remember he took me out to Pittsburgh to audition at Point Park University. I'll never forget that audition, did not go well. It's kind of crazy when you think back of the insane optimism you have as a kid.

Julie:

Of course.

Jessica:

I really, really miss that. To the time when I really believed that it was possible, I could do musical theater professionally. I mean, as a 17, 18-year-old kid, I really believed that that was possible. And I just, I miss that, that time in life of being a child who thinks big things. I think that's the constant challenge as adults. We always have to keep creating possibilities, because it's so natural for kids too.

Julie:

Right. You just don't know what you don't know, and so you don't know it can't be done until we start to be exposed. But just to that end, I mean, you were positive, was it ... I mean, what did it take for you to realize, because I think you ... was it professors, was it just you? How did the realization hit you?

Jessica:

So my parents were telling me. I don't have any recollection of them telling me, but I know that they were kind of pushing me in the direction of a school and have a major that maybe was a little bit more general, something a little bit more employable.

            But I think I never heard it from them. I wasn't hearing it from them. And then it was actually my theater teachers in high school, Mr. Brown and Mr. McGraw, and they were like, "Don't major in theater. It is a different ... you love doing theater in school, in high school. You love the experience of it as an activity, but don't do this professionally." And then it was finally that I was like, "Okay. I'll probably go to Temple University. I could still major in theater," because I'm also pretty stubborn and didn't want to admit anyone else was right besides me. So I'll make the compromise. I'll go to a liberal arts school where I could change majors if I wanted to. So I still majored in theater, and then it was my second semester of college in my freshman year that I switched over to a communications major.

Julie:

And we're glad you did. I mean, now because the form of ... you've taken that and run with it. I mean, having to leave a dream behind is always a hard thing, I think, especially one you've held for so long. I think that there was a great moment that you had shared with me before about seeing a flyer at one point that was the next big holy shit moment. The nonprofit flyer, but this flyer kind of changed your life.

Jessica:

Yes, absolutely. So I remember I was walking on campus at Temple and I had been working even shortly after I changed my major to communication, I still had my work study job for $6 an hour. I was working in the costume shop at the theater at Temple. And I'm like, "I need this job."

            And work study was something that I needed that little bit of an income because all of the student debt and everything was ... my dad did not ... I think he co-signed with me, but it was still all my student debt. So I'm like, "I still need to keep some income coming in." And I saw a flyer that said, "Help save the environment, $10 an hour. Take a tab." And I'm like, "$10 an hour is more than six." And saving the environment sounds really fun and cool and let me check this out.

            So I went and I interviewed for this job, it was a nonprofit called Clean Water Action. And I took the subway down to center city and the first interview was sitting in the office, just kind of like making sure you can form a sentence and show some passion for the job. Like, let's just make sure they're not a total crazy person. And so they said, "Great, come back for a second interview."

            The second interview is an observation day. This is when you're actually going to go out into the field. You're going to watch somebody knock on doors for a couple hours, then you're going to try it on your own. And I was like, "Okay, cool." And I went and I did that. And my second interview, my first night out there knocking on doors, I raised like $75 going door to door, raising money for this organization. And I'm like, "This is awesome." And they were like, "Wow, you raised $75?" I was like, "Yeah, it was fun."

            And they're like, "You're hired!" And so I did that job and then ... I started it in February. So this just shows you who I am. I took out a job going door to door in February in Philadelphia, pretty cold, but going door to door at night, mind you-

Julie:

Oh my.

Jessica:

... in the projects basically, but I totally loved it. I became a manager, a trainer and then a manager by the summer. And then I worked there every summer and then part time during the school year.

Julie:

Wow. I mean, I'm sure that that had a huge impact on what it is that you felt was now your calling in life. What did you do with that and from that?

Jessica:

Yeah, that job gave me everything. I mean, I worked there for six years-

Julie:

Wow.

Jessica:

... pretty much straight through. I took at least one hiatus when I moved up to Rhode Island from Philadelphia, but it gave me everything. I mean, I made lifelong friends in that job, I met my husband in that job, and the skills that I learned going door to door, that is where I learned sales.

            I mean, I remember they would teach five basic skills and then there were a lot of sub-skills from there, like confidence, making eye contact, keeping it short and simple, all these basic sales skills. And then literally just learning the empathy of just knocking on someone's door and getting in their world, just immediately getting in their world, understanding within a second, kind of assessing the situation.

            Do they look relaxed? Are they ready to sit down with you on the porch and have a conversation? Do they look super stressed out? You never know what you're walking into when you knock on someone's door at six o'clock at night. And so being able to think on your feet and immediately connect with someone. I mean, we would knock on doors with people that maybe hadn't talked to anyone all day and maybe they're an elderly person and nobody's asked them just how they're doing.

            Because we would always start out, "How are you today?" And the positive impact we would have on people's lives just by having that human interaction and having a meaningful conversation about what's going on in the world and how can we hold politicians accountable? We would introduce that stuff and just even talking about it, it makes me excited. And I've gone and done volunteer canvases and raised money just doing it for fun as an alumni.

            And it just gave me everything. And I took so much of what I learned at that job into my current life as an entrepreneur.

Julie:

You took that, and I think you were just mentioning it, into politics, right? Didn't you?

Jessica:

Yeah.

Julie:

It's like a perfect setup when they talk about the community. I know president Obama was a big community organizer, and this sounds very much like preparation for that, if not that in and of itself.

Jessica:

Yeah. And that organization's a nonprofit and they do community organizing and fundraising, and part of what they do is also endorsing politicians who are environmentally friendly. So we would knock on doors also telling people about elected officials that we had endorsed. And then when I moved up to Providence from Philadelphia, I left Clean Water Action and was like, "I'm done knocking on doors. I'm done with that."

            And so I got a job. I actually was almost going to go into a master's program because I didn't actually know what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I'm like, "Let's go to grad school. That's what people do when they don't know what they want to be when they grow up." That was a short-lived little dream there because it was like two months after I graduated from college where I was like, "Nope, I got a taste of the real world without school. I'm not going."

            So I quickly got my deposit back and did not go to grad school, but I did get a job working for a congressional campaign. David Siegel was running for Congress in Rhode Island. And my husband was friends and worked with a lot of people that were on the campaign. And he was like, "Well, I'm looking for people to work here." So I got paid like next to nothing. I think it ended up being like $5 an hour. It was basically nothing, like small stipend. And did a lot of door knocking and organizing. And then they kind of brought me up to the executive level office because they heard I could fundraise. So then I would make fundraising calls for the candidate, which was really cool.

Julie:

It's like somewhere along the way, I mean, didn't you ... you have kids, you have two kids. Did you have kids in the midst of that while you were-

Jessica:

Oh my God, no. So this all happened a few years before I had kids. So this was like 2010 was when this ... I graduated college in 2010 and worked on the campaign that summer. And then I went back to Clean Water Action in the fall because they were hiring for a director. And so that was the next level up from any role I had had before. So I became the director, the campus director of their Providence office and worked there from the fall of 2010 through March 2013. And that's when my son Nathan was born.

Julie:

And so 2013 was a big year for you, right? Because not only with your son Nathan born, but I mean there was ... I want to peel back as to what was that holy shit moment that happened between the birth of your son, grad school wasn't it, you stopped doing the door to door, but yet I know it's also in 2013 that you launched this company that you started. So what happened? What happened? What was that trigger and that impetus?

Jessica:

So I think the [ho-shi-mo] was really ... it was about fall of 2012. So I was pregnant. I was still working at Clean Water Action. And I remember the last night I actually went door to door. I was a few months pregnant so I wasn't big, but walking around on your feet, even three, four months pregnant, I got like the worst ... just cramping up. I'm like, "Oh my God." It was just that reality check of like, "Your life's got to change. You can't do this job forever."

            Because even before that, I knew I was going to leave that job because I didn't want to work into ... these were evening shifts. It was like going into the office at 10 or 11 in the morning and working till 10 at night. So I'm like number one, I just knew the hours cannot be that ... That's why I told my boss when I was pregnant that I would be leaving. But I still was thinking like, "I don't know what I'll do. Maybe ..." My friend Ann worked at a bar I'm like, "Maybe I'll become a bartender." I don't know what I was thinking, but I was open for anything. And then that moment of being like, "Oh God, I can't be on my feet." I was like, "I need to do something different."

            And I remember having a conversation with my parents saying like, "I want to be home." I want to be, not necessarily a stay-at-home mom and the fact that I don't want to work, I just knew I wanted to be home. I didn't want to have a baby and then find a daycare within two months or whatever. And so my dad, being an entrepreneur, he said, "You should be a virtual assistant." And I had no idea what that was. I was working door to door. I didn't know what these online entrepreneur community was, knew nothing about it. And so I'm like, "Okay." He's like, "Listen, you can make your own income, set your own hours." It all really sounded too good to be true. I'm like, "Okay, sure. I trust you."

            He goes, "I'll be your first client, but you need to learn from me. I'm not going to just keep you on because you're my daughter, but you really have to work for it." And so reading, I remember I read Carrie Wilkerson's book, The Barefoot Executive. And she is a successful business coach who's a mom, and reading her story, that was my first business book I read about an entrepreneur who really put their family first and had a successful business. I was like, "Oh." It was that holy shit moment. Like, "Oh my God. Wow, this is awesome. This is so possible."

            And so that's when I just, I buckled up. I mean, I mentioned that administrative job that was first for my dad. One of the tasks he had me do was check the links on his membership site. So for like $15 an hour, he would pay me to click through all the links in his membership site to make sure they weren't broken. And it was that moment where I was like, "Doing this for my kid, doing this for my kid."

Julie:

Eye on the prize. Eye on the prize.

Jessica:

Exactly. This is not about me anymore.

Julie:

But this book, I love the fact that it was a book that was sort of this trigger. Obviously, because this is sort of why I'd like to do these podcasts is I think this is sort of my own personal book, if you will, of things that other people are doing that hopefully can create inspiration for others to do. So you heard this, but how did you decide that the thing ... I mean, I love that you read this book and that you were like, "It's possible. I could do this." And then seeing your dad being an entrepreneur, obviously had an effect. The fact that you're super well-grounded and your upbringing, I think, all played a huge role, at least from my chair, from what it feels like to me. But how did you then decide on ...

            I mean, actually for me, it's sort of funny because for me podcasts and interviews and doing what you've done, and I want you to explain a little bit more what it is that your company does and how you got there, but it feels so much like community organizing level. It is-

Jessica:

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Julie:

... like that. I mean, it's just done in a more virtual, digital way.

Jessica:

Yes. 100%. It's so funny, the parallels of my business and what my team does now to my life going door to door, it really is just organizing hosts and organizing guests. And what kind of got me into that ...

            I am so sorry. I hope Fred can edit this because my daughter just opened the door. I'm on an interview Lucy. Here. I apologize. I told them I was on an interview, but I'm really glad it seems that there's an editor here.

Julie:

Yeah, no. We got Fred. We'll stop. We'll pause, because I got to give him a break. So the parallels seemed super interesting to community organizing and now with podcasting. It's kind of cold calling in many ways.

Jessica:

Oh, absolutely. There's so many parallels to my life and my business now to going door to door. And it's been really great, because we use examples, my business partner and I actually met at that job. So she and I both have that background and we'll always say, "When we went door to door, we would always match energies." And you have to mirror energies when you're doing sales calls. So much of what we learned there is so applicable here, because it really just comes down to human experience and human relationships and communication. And that can be applied, really, everywhere. But even down to organizing interviews for entrepreneurs on podcasts is so much like the community organizing we did going door to door with the nonprofit.

Julie:

I mean, for me it does, it makes all the sense in the world. And it makes sense that that would have been what you were attracted to in terms of how you start your business. But I mean, the fact that you started it and you're now seven figures, you have 18 employees, seven years later. What are you seeing the thematically and what is new, I guess, for you and what you are doing now? Because I think you also made a big change just a couple of years ago as well [inaudible] your business.

Jessica:

Yeah. At first, I was growing the company as really just a freelancer. I started bringing on other freelancers and it was a lifestyle business. From the beginning, it was always like I'm doing this because I want to be a home-based mom. And then it really shifted as it grew. And there was a turning point of, "Okay, this is bigger than me. This is not just as a lifestyle business so she could be a stay-at-home mom. This is more than just me. I have clients who are pretty successful and relying on this for their business and this needs to be more sustainable," and all of that. And so we shifted from having a lot of contractors helping book interviews to having in-house employees and also I brought on my first employee who is Margy.

            She became co-owner. And it really got to that point, late 2017, that I realized I didn't want to do this alone. I wanted to grow something big. I really wanted to grow a real business, a real company bigger than just, again, a freelance business or a lifestyle business. And bringing on a business partner, specifically Margy, because we had been working together and we had just a great balance, would really just make it more fun and would help us grow, at twice the speed. And so that's the big change that we made, is switching over to having in-house, W2 employees doing the whole thing with benefits and all of that, to then bringing on a co-owner, giving up half the equity, but ultimately making so much more money because we had twice the power.

Julie:

Well, and I love that in giving up the control, you end up being more successful. Because I think that's a great lesson for people to learn and to hear too. It is somehow in the ... there was a great quote from a different podcast I did in a totally different circumstance, but she was like, "The power is not in the control. It is in the surrender."

Jessica:

Oh my gosh. So true.

Julie:

There is something super real about that and that you found personal freedom and success by giving up that control.

Jessica:

I love that. That quote is really powerful. And I've definitely experienced that, because before I had a business partner, it was the Jess show. If I didn't want to do my sales followups, guess what? I didn't do them and nobody held me accountable to it because it was my business. I didn't owe anyone an explanation because it was my business. And having a partner has actually been great. And I will say, it's not always easy having to be accountable to someone else because sometimes you want to just not do the thing you yet have to do.

            But having that accountability and having somebody else that you're working with and working for, it really does push you, because we need the accountability. We need somebody that's going to hold us accountable, and support us too. We support each other immensely. She's like my second spouse, we support each other so much and we hold each other accountable. And it is that surrendering all of the control, we're surrendering half the control, I guess, has really allowed the company to grow so much faster.

Julie:

Yeah, that's great. I love the story, Jessica. And I love the fact that it's ... doing these has been super fun for me, but it's fun to be able to interview guests that have tried ... they've tried to have it all. And I think that it's very hard for people to successfully do, but you've done that by just kind of a constant ebb and flow of sort of one passion after the other.

            And then you kind of leverage that passion onto what you do next, but always sort of being grounded in what's important and putting family first and your own wellbeing. And then, in doing that, finding greater success because of the relinquishment of control in so many different ways. So I think it's a great story and hopefully a big inspiration for people who listen in on this one. This has been great. Thank you so much for sharing.

Jessica:

Thank you so much, Julie. I really appreciate the opportunity to share my story.