Michael Kassan, Chairman and CEO, MediaLink - Podcast with Julie Roehm
“Michael Kassan is truly a man who needs no introduction complete with his #HoShiMo‘s memorialized in Frenemies by Ken Auletta. Truly the most “networked” man in the advertising industry, a lawyer, entrepreneur, visionary and friend. You will be enthralled by his story.” - Julie Roehm
As we embark on a digital odyssey, strategic conversations between industry pioneers can help us navigate the labyrinth. Recently, Julie Roehm, a maven in strategic communications and marketing, hosted an interview with Michael Kassan, Chairman and CEO of MediaLink.
Steering a company that serves as a catalyst for driving growth in the media industry, Michael Kassan has witnessed the rapid evolution of digital media firsthand. Julie Roehm, with her profound expertise, skillfully steers this conversation, shedding light on critical areas shaping the industry's future.
Kassan emphasizes the importance of adaptability and innovation in today's media landscape. In his view, the future belongs to those who can ride the digital wave while maintaining their core values. Digital media, he believes, is not just about the medium but also the message.
The conversation takes an interesting turn when Julie Roehm probes into the challenges facing the media industry. Kassan acknowledges that while technology has eased content distribution, it has also led to an over-saturation of content. The real challenge, he suggests, lies in creating meaningful, impactful content that resonates with the audience.
Julie Roehm, in her insightful manner, pushes the conversation to explore the opportunities in the media world. Kassan opines that the future lies in personalized experiences. Media enterprises, according to him, need to leverage data-driven insights to create hyper-personalized content that caters to individual preferences and needs.
As the discourse moves to the role of leadership in the media industry, Julie Roehm and Michael Kassan agree on the importance of visionary leadership. Leaders need to be open to change, embrace diversity, and foster an environment that encourages innovation.
So, what does this mean for those shaping the future of media? It calls for being adaptable, creating meaningful content, offering personalized experiences, and cultivating visionary leadership.
Whether you're a digital enthusiast, a marketing professional, or someone intrigued by the ever-evolving media landscape, this conversation between Julie Roehm and Michael Kassan is a must-explore. It offers not only an insider's view of the industry but also invaluable insights that can guide your journey in the dynamic world of digital media.
In the grand scheme of things, this conversation underscores the importance of strategic dialogue in comprehending and navigating the future of digital media. Julie Roehm, with her knack for driving meaningful discussions, has indeed facilitated a discourse that fosters understanding and anticipation of what lies ahead in the digital media world.
The exchange between Julie Roehm and Michael Kassan is an insightful exploration into the labyrinth of digital media, where every turn is an opportunity, and every challenge is a stepping stone towards a brighter, more connected future. As Kassan puts it, "The future of media is now, and it's digital."
About ‘The Conversational’ Podcast
"The Conversational," a podcast by Julie Roehm, is a cornerstone of insightful dialogues, a meeting point of intellects where the power of words shapes the future. Fueled by Julie Roehm's dynamism and her passion for innovation, it serves as an arena where ideas are exchanged, and voices of transformational leaders are heard.
Julie Roehm, a titan in marketing and business strategy, adds an extra layer of depth to every interaction. Her experience, coupled with her instinctive inquisitiveness, unlocks unexplored perspectives, making "The Conversational" more than just an auditory experience. It's a platform that bridges the gap between listeners and leaders, creating a channel for knowledge and inspiration.
Navigating through diverse industries, Julie Roehm explores the intricacies of technology, healthcare, marketing, and entrepreneurship. The podcast is a goldmine of stories — tales of challenges, triumphs, and visions that shape the future of these sectors. With Julie Roehm at the steering wheel, the journey is as enlightening as the destination.
The Conversational isn't merely a series of dialogues. It's a masterclass in understanding our ever-evolving world, a compass for those navigating the labyrinth of life and business. Julie Roehm's role is pivotal, her voice a beacon guiding listeners towards enlightenment and transformation.
Transcript:
Julie (00:02):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Conversational. My name is Julie Roehm, and my fabulous guest today is the one and only, the incomparable, Michael Kassan. So for those of you... I honestly don't know how anybody could not know who you are, but if you're one of the few living under a rock who hasn't been introduced in some way to Michael Kassan, let me tell you a little bit about them before we start chatting. So, first of all, he's currently the founder, chairman and CEO of MediaLink, which is a firm that I get if people haven't heard of. I say that, being in the industry, obviously I've heard of it. But the firm itself is designed actually not to necessarily be the front. It's there to be the connector. It is there to actually put its clients in front. And its clients is what makes it unique, is this combination of both who you would consider in the marketing and advertising world clients, the brand and the agencies, and agencies of all sorts.
It could be Googles. It could be the Omnicom or the WPP, the BBDOs, all those agencies you've heard of. That's their kind of their sweet spot, in addition to doing lots of other things that they evolved into, which we'll get into a little bit. But Michael himself is the founder. This was his baby. And I'm super proud to say, I knew him exactly at the moment that he was birthing this baby when it was just a him. And what he's built it into is just nothing short of unbelievable, and I feel really great to have had a front row seat to watching it happen.
Michael (01:34):
Julie, I would give you more credit than just a front row seat. You were an active participant. You actually got on the stage with me a few times, if you will, literally and figuratively to help me do it, because you were a boldface name in this industry when I started MediaLink. And you were one of those people at the beginning that always took my call and always took the time and always gave me that welcome mat. So I just want to say, you were more than a viewer, you were a participant.
Julie (02:09):
Well, thank you. Yeah, I'm not stupid. I saw who you were. Of course, I would take your call. Even in the day, you didn't have to be clairvoyant to know what kind of person you were. And I mean person, not just because of your connections and your power, but of your heart and your nature, that those are the kinds of people you want in your life. And people, because I say, culture eats strategy for lunch and people are everything. So all right, quickly more about you so they know just how amazing you are, beyond just the ultimate power broker. He's also got a team right now, the global team, more than 125 specialists providing counsel for navigating the age of digital disruption in areas including... And I told you, it wasn't just brokering companies together, but marketplace development, talent and organization, so they do some search, brand transformations, data and technology agency optimization and investor strategies.
But before that, in 2019, before this pandemic, he was inducted into the American Advertising Federation's Hall of Fame, which is the highest honor you can get in this industry. He's known for his ability to just see opportunities and just to seize them like no other, including doing things above and beyond what you would expect, like redefining CES, the Cannes Lion Event, the Mobile World Congress. And those events wouldn't be what they are today without his background and what he has put into them. So he founded this whole MediaLink in 2003. But before then, he was president COO and vice chairman of Initiative Media Worldwide. He was president and COO of the International Video Entertainment, so artisan entertainment. And he's got more awards than there is time on this podcast, but a few of them.
He is top media executive in America by ad age. And in 2018 was honored on Adweek's Power 100 list and on Variety's index of the 500 most influential business leaders shaping the global entertainment industry. He's been named at the Hollywood Reporter as, this one's my favorite, Silicon Beach 25 list of most powerful digital players in LA. Anything with beach in it is an award I want. He also served on the board of the Hollywood Radio and Television Society Commission on California State Government Organization and Economy and the Cultural Affairs Commission City of Los Angeles, and has been chairman of the State Senate Select Committee on the Entertainment Industry, which is really cool because you may not know it, he's a lawyer. So he's also a strong supporter of community and not for profit programs. He currently serves as chair of the UJA New York Marketing Communications Committee.
And I'm always honored to be an honorary member of the Jewish community. I'm not, but I like to pretend. And then a board member of the American Advertising Federation Ad Council and the Paley Center For Media. So again, in addition to having just created something outstanding, he has given back in spades, and there's not a person who literally has touched the marketing or advertising industry who, A, doesn't know him or can't attribute some level of their success, whether it was direct or indirect I think in some way, to who you are, Mr. Kassan. Thank you for coming and being my guest.
Michael (05:34):
Julie, Julie, I never knew I would sit through a description of my evil twin brother. That's so good.
Julie (05:40):
You are so deserving of all of that.
Michael (05:47):
You're so kind to say that. And I shutter to think, but thank you, Julie. Thank you.
Julie (05:58):
One of the things that we talked about, so I will share with everybody listening, I try to do a pre-call with my guests, even guests that I have known 20 plus years, like Michael, just to say what to expect on my podcast in case they haven't heard one. And I always say, "Look, I'll start off by asking you where you were born, what your parents did." I was like, "So just, some of that early stuff, if I don't remember, will you give me some of those points and key holy shit moments in your life, because you know that that's what this is about." And Michael, so the first ever guest I've ever had that was like, "Nope. You need to read this book Frenemies. You read that, that will tell you everything that you don't know about me already. And that will be it."
And so I was scrambling because we did this call and now this got delayed a week, but I scrambled and I stayed up till midnight one night and I cranked through this book and it was such a great read the book. By the way, everybody, it's called Frenemies, the Epic Disruption of the Ad Business (And Everything Else). And for me, it was such a joy to read because it was almost like reading the diaries of people that I knew. Some I can call friends like Michael. There's other people in there like Wendy Maillard, who is a partner, was a partner with Michael in MediaLink for a while. I interviewed her. She's been a guest on the podcast as well. It was the most surreal read for me because of that. And so, Michael, and I know we talked about a surreal read for you because while you knew you were going to be featured in the book, you didn't know you were going to be the feature in the book.
Michael (07:33):
That's for sure, Julie. I'll tell you, I had a holy shit moment in my own life when I read the book before its publication. And then kind of to bring it full circle, when it was published in June of 2018, it came out just around the time of the Cannes Lions that year. And I got on that Delta flight that everybody tries to book from New York to Nice, the direct flight.
And I got on the plane, and I knew that Frenemies was coming out right then and I knew that at Cannes Lions that year, it would be a topic. It was a topic. It was a topic du jour. It has just been issued. It had just been released. And I got on the plane, and literally there were five people on the plane reading the book in hard copy when I got on a plane. And I said, thank God, this is an overnight flight so I can just go to sleep, put the covers over my head because I literally was freaked out, to be honest. And then you get on the plate and literally five people are holding the book up reading, and I'm going, oh, my God.
Julie (08:39):
I have to ask, when you landed and you woke up, had they stayed up all night reading the book?
Michael (08:44):
I hope so.
Julie (08:45):
Did they look at you and ask you questions? That would have been [crosstalk 00:08:49].
Michael (08:50):
Yeah. It was very funny because I was fortunate to sit in the front of the plane, and that flight, for some reason I got the bulkhead, so I was literally the front row. And so I didn't see a lot behind me. Except when I got to go up to go to the bathroom, that's when I realized it and I did stop along the way on the way back. And one gal was holding the book and I kind of peeked over her shoulder to see what page she was on, and it was one that had a lot of personal stuff on it. And I went, oh, God. And I turned away and kept walking to my seat. But yeah, it was daunting around that period. But all in all, it was good. It was a good experience. But there is that moment. It's wonderful to see your name in lights. It's not so wonderful when everyone's looking at it.
Julie (09:43):
Well, I'm sure it felt really raw. I mean, at some point it... We'll get to that because I want to have people get a little grounding and where you came from and how you got to where you are, because that is... Obviously, it's covered in the book, but that is really what's most fascinating because I think you had a series of holy shit moments in your very early life. And without them... Look...
Michael (10:11):
I wouldn't be who I am without them.
Julie (10:12):
Well, you wouldn't, of course. None of us would be without our early, but you wouldn't... I think the empathy, that the reason why you're so successful is because not only just your special talent, but your true empathy for people. And I think that empathy and that lack of judgment and that always willingness to see what you see versus what the world tells you you should see is because of your own experiences. And I think I relate to that, of course, but that is something that is super unique and you have been able to make it your super power and make it your business. And that really is really unique.
Michael (10:52):
Julie, I will say, thank you for that. The thing I would modify in what you said is I hope I don't have a lack of judgment, but what I do have is no desire to be judgmental.
Julie (11:04):
I think that's fair. And that's what I meant, for sure.
Michael (11:06):
Yeah, no, no, no. And I know that, but there's a big difference because I relate this to something else. I'm extraordinarily proud of the best thing I've done, excuse me, in my life, which was together with my wife, raising three great children. And people have said to me for years, "Gee, Michael, you and Ronnie, your kids turned out really well," and they were not spoiled. They were indulged. I'm honest about that. And I could spend a whole podcast talking about the difference between indulging children and spoiling children. I'm a big believer that indulging is okay. I'm an equally big believer in spoiling is not okay. And there's a difference.
Julie (11:58):
I agree.
Michael (11:59):
But when people say to me, "What were some of the secrets of how it turned out? Because you and Ronnie were fortunate to have a big life." And generally speaking, or not generally, but oft times when the parents have a big life, the kids suffer, they don't benefit. If that makes any sense.
Julie (12:18):
Sure.
Michael (12:18):
And so people were like, "What was your secret?" I said, "Well, there were two. Teaching our children... " Maybe more than two, but the two that I liked to point to were the need to teach your children balance. It's unrealistic to presume that as they're growing up they're not going to do something they shouldn't or something they should, but you want to make sure they don't do too much of that which they shouldn't. And they also shouldn't do too much of that which they should. You don't want to have robots. And on the other hand, everyone has their moments where they try things or experience things. And so we would always tell our kids, have balance. Don't do too much of anything. You know they're going to have a drink, but don't drink all the time. You know they're going to try certain things, just don't do it all the time. Acknowledge that.
And the other thing was, we tried never to be judgmental. Because if you're not, then it opens up the ability for them to come to you and talk to you because they know you're not going to judge them. And so I've tried to take that logic that worked well with our children and apply it to business and to interaction and people, because I think business is personal and personal is business. And I tell you a funny tagline that changed my life. Back in the late '80s, PAC Bell, Pacific Telephone, which was then the local carrier here in Southern California, did a brilliant campaign. And that the campaign was trying to get people to use their business phones. Because in the old days, if you had a home phone, you paid a flat fee per month. And the only thing you paid for was a-
Michael (14:00):
Phone, you paid a flat fee per month, and the only thing you paid for was, imagine this word today, a toll call. People don't know what that means. But a toll call, you know what it means.
Julie (14:11):
Oh yeah.
Michael (14:11):
Okay.
Julie (14:12):
I had a card I had to use, right, for toll calls.
Michael (14:16):
Right. On your home phone, you paid a flat fee and you only paid extra for a toll call. On your business line, you had a set amount of calls and anything over that set amount, you had to pay per call. So PacTel was trying to get people to use their business phones more often. And so the tagline was, "Some of the best business calls are personal." That tagline shows you the importance of marketing. That tagline changed my life.
Julie (14:45):
Because you took it to heart.
Michael (14:49):
Because I took it to heart.
Julie (14:50):
Yeah.
Michael (14:51):
Don't only call the business person when you have something about business to talk to them about, build a relationship.
Julie (14:57):
Right. Which you-
Michael (14:58):
Talk about their kid's little league, talk about what's happening in their life. Don't just talk about, "I've got this to sell and I want you to buy." Or, "Here's the advice you need." You build a relationship. You and I did.
Julie (15:09):
Oh my God, you used to-
Michael (15:10):
You and I built a personal relationship as friends.
Julie (15:13):
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael (15:13):
Even more than business. At the beginning, we just liked each other and you called me for advice, I called you for advice. And I'd run shit past you, that I knew you'd never buy a Chrysler in those days when I first met you. But I knew that I'd get your advice and I knew that I could establish a personal relationship with you. The business would come if it was supposed to, but you don't have to force that. But again, that tagline, imagine a tagline of an ad campaign. Maybe they wanted a Cleo or a Lion, but it won for me because it really impacted my life.
Julie (15:48):
Yeah. It's so true. We'll get to it, but we share this. It was all personal. I mean, you used to come when I was at Chrysler and you just would sit across and we'd just chat. Sometimes there just wasn't anything necessarily that made sense for us, but it didn't matter. We just-
Michael (16:05):
Yeah. Some of the best meetings I have are those, what I would call, Seinfeld meetings. They're meetings about nothing. Yada, yada, yada. You know?
Julie (16:05):
Right.
Michael (16:14):
I have those all the time and they lead to good things usually, either personally or business wise.
Julie (16:20):
Because you build trust with people and that's what makes the difference. Okay, so tell us, where were you born, what did your parents do? How did you get to be like you at the early age?
Michael (16:32):
If you ask my sisters, they would answer the question differently. Having grown up as the only son with two older sisters, my sisters would say I was the sun, S-U-N. Maybe that explains a bit of my personality.
Julie (16:53):
Where were you in the lineup of the, with the-
Michael (16:53):
I was the baby.
Julie (16:57):
Baby. Got it. Okay. Even more the sun.
Michael (16:59):
Yeah, so I was the only son and the baby. It did two things for me. It put me in touch with my feminine side much earlier. I never went through a, "I don't like girls" part. I always liked girls. I never went through that part. I was the first one in my friends to have a girlfriend and my friends all made fun of me. And I went, "It's okay, you can make fun of me. You'll get the joke soon." I got the playing field to myself. But I mean that. I was born in Brooklyn and we moved to California in 1953, so I really grew up in California. As you know, I just turned 70, so I was three years old when we moved. When we got in the Conestogas and crossed the Plains. It was a 12 hour flight back then, probably with a stop in Chicago.
I grew up in Los Angeles, but I had an advantage. And the advantage was my grandparents and close aunts and uncles still lived in New York. So in the '50s, which was unusual, I had a bi-coastal life. I was raised in California, but I had a strong New York influence. And in those days, the lines of demarcation between the left and the right coast were way more stark than they are today. New York was eons ahead in fashion, in life, and in culture. In all the things that make New York, New York. And I had the benefit of growing up in LA, but spending all that time in New York as a kid made a big difference for me. I would come back after spending summers with my grandparents in the Catskill Mountains, and I'd come back and I was different.
Julie (18:55):
Yeah. I believe that.
Michael (18:57):
I thought differently.
Julie (18:58):
Yeah.
Michael (18:59):
I thought differently, I dressed differently. It was just New York mentality, that sort of New York state of mind.
Julie (19:08):
How did you decide to be a lawyer? How did that?
Michael (19:12):
When I went to college, I was pre dental. I wanted to be a dentist of all things.
Julie (19:18):
I think that's a riot.
Michael (19:21):
And like many things, you choose those based on people you look up to. My first cousin who was kind of like a big brother, was a dentist. And I thought, "I want to be like Jay. That's what I want to do." And my freshman year of college I was pre-medical. You'd have to, whatever you'd set out, pre dental, pre-medical. And about six weeks in, I said, "This is not," I mean, I was in college, I wasn't in dental school.
Julie (19:21):
Right.
Michael (19:50):
But I said, "I'm more the arts guy, not the science guy.This isn't for me." And I called my parents, and I remember, and I said, this was 1967, I remember saying, "I think I want to be a lawyer. I don't think I want to go into dentistry. It's more natural for me." I'm a ham, I kind of always was, so I think I'd probably do better in that context using whatever gifts I had in persuasion and other things, applying it into the law.
And I realized I wanted more of a business career than a medical or a dental career. And I thought law would be a great way to have that opportunity, because the likelihood of going from law to business is more likely than going from dentistry to, I mean, just looking at the percentages. So that was it. And then I realized I didn't want to actually do litigation and be in court, I really was interested in the business side. And so I went to law school and then I did a master's degree in taxation at NYU. So for the 10 years that I did practice law, Julie, I practiced as a tax lawyer, and was certified to do that. So I got into tax planning and being creative, where I found in tax, it was the area of law where you had a chance to be more creative, I guess.
Because within the context of the law, there's a very famous Supreme Court case that says nobody has a patriotic duty to pay more than their fair share of taxes. So if you can be creative within the context of the rules and regulations, you're not breaking the law to be creative. And I thought, "Great. This is a place where I could apply my, that brain, that side of my brain, to being a lawyer." So I did that for 10 years. But for me, it was always a means to an end. I didn't know what the end would be, but I knew I wouldn't practice law forever.
Julie (22:42):
Right. And I love this story of how, in terms of being bi-coastal, it was also in terms of your education, right? Your undergrad and then your grad. But you met Ronnie, it's a great story. So Ronnie, your wife, just so people know.
Michael (22:56):
Right.
Julie (22:57):
You met Ronnie, and it's such a Kassan, It's such a Michael sort of story, and I didn't know it actually, I read it in the book. We all got to know a lot about how Ronnie made to work for it now.
Michael (23:12):
Exactly. Literally. Literally and figuratively.
Julie (23:16):
Will you share the story?
Michael (23:17):
I said to Ronnie, when I read that galley, I said, "Did you really need to say that?" And she said, "Well, he asked me to tell the story." I said, "Yeah, but there are certain things that might've been better kept between us." But no, it's true. And there's a part of the story, which I don't remember if it made it into Frenemies, but have you ever seen the movie Sliding Doors?
Julie (23:38):
Yes. With Gwyneth Paltrow, right?
Michael (23:44):
Yes. Excuse me, I'm sorry.
Julie (23:45):
Yeah, go ahead.
Michael (23:46):
It was a small movie, but it did very well I think.
Julie (23:49):
It was great. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. And just so you know-
Michael (23:54):
The Sliding Doors part of my story, which I don't think was in the book, was when I asked Ronnie out for the first time, she said, "Well, I don't know." She was surprised I called her. It's a long story as to how I got her phone number. I was dropping something off for a friend and she opened the door and I was smitten. But when I called her to ask her out, she said, "Well, I don't know. I may be going to Palm Springs for the weekend." She had just moved here from New York a year and a half earlier after she went to graduate school, and Ronnie's got her master's in psychology and she had moved out here. She had broken up with a boyfriend, moved out to California, wanted to kind of change her life. And she was just ready to move back to New York, because she was kind of, "Eh, California, not so much. Going to go back to New York."
And we met just then. And so I asked her out, she told me she didn't know, and then she didn't call me back. And I asked her out on Tuesday for Saturday, which was a big thing for me in those days. I was usually last minute Charlie, you know? I'll ask you out on Saturday morning. But in her case, I asked her out on Tuesday. By Friday, I hadn't heard from her. The Sliding Doors moment, I was working as a law clerk in Beverly Hills. I was in school, but I had a job as well working for a law firm. And it was lunch hour and I was crossing the street at the corner of Wilsher and Beverly Drive.
Julie (25:22):
That's in the book.
Michael (25:23):
Walking across the street the other way, was Ronnie. And we ran into each other in the middle of the street. And I said, I'd only seen her once before, so I wasn't even sure it was her. But I said, "Whoa." And we're literally in the middle of the street. And I said, "Well, I guess you didn't go to Palm Springs." And she was mortified, because she never called me back. She said, "No, no. I meant to call you. I can go out." I said, "Okay." Well, had we not been crossing the street-
Julie (25:48):
Yeah, who knows. That story is in the book, by the way.
Michael (25:52):
46 years later, we wouldn't be sitting here happily married. So there you go.
Julie (25:57):
And grandkids and the brood of kids. I love this story, because she then goes on to share how she was like, "Okay, now I got to go out. I can't hide anymore." And you went out, and then it wasn't too much longer later, and it was really at this point of transition with you both kind of making your way to New York.
Michael (26:15):
Yeah.
Julie (26:16):
And she said, she shares a story where she was on the phone, and I'm doing this from memory and not looking at my notes, but she was on the phone with somebody about a wedding.
Michael (26:23):
No. Her best friend was getting married.
Julie (26:23):
A wedding, right?
Michael (26:25):
And Ronnie was the maid of honor. I didn't ask her to marry me yet, but she told me, I stopped at her apartment and she said to me, "I just want you to know," because I had told her I loved her and she hadn't responded. So she said, "I just want to tell you that I love you." And I said, "Okay, well I guess I should go to New York with you." And she said, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well," I knew what I meant; I said, "Well, you're going to New York for Randy," her friend Randy's wedding. I said, "I guess I should go." She said, "Well, I'm not invited with a date." Because she wasn't dating somebody that anyone knew about.
Julie (27:10):
Right.
Michael (27:10):
And I said, "But if she's your best friend, I'm sure you could call her and tell her you wanted to bring somebody to the wedding." And you know, the power of suggestion works and Ronnie says, "Yeah, you're right." And she dialed the phone, and as she dials, she literally took the phone and cupped it to her chest because it was ringing and said, "Who do I tell her I'm bringing? No one knows about you." I said, "Your fiance."
Julie (27:33):
That's in the book. I love that story. It's a great story, because it's also such a Michael Kassan. This is what I think, this is the great story, like the running into it and like, "Nope." This is like, "You just have to trust me. This is meant to be."
Michael (27:48):
Well, it's a transition, Julie. Not to a question, but to a further answer. I've described myself to others when asked with a couple of words. One is opportunistic.
Michael (28:00):
A couple of words. One is opportunistic. In a good way, not a pejorative way because I generally think I'm good at identifying opportunities. The second word I use is a capitalist because I think I'm better than the average bear at capitalizing on those opportunities when I see them. The third word is a merchandiser because I think once I identify an opportunity, figure out a way to capitalize on it, what I think I'm really good at is merchandising it. And then the fourth word that I've added to that list, which is immodest, but I guess it's okay in this context to be a little immodest, I think I'm a really good storyteller. So if you're an opportunist who can figure out a way to capitalize on opportunities, then merchandise it and be able to tell good stories about it or about whatever it is, it's a good combination. And if I think of the things that make me, me, I think those four things are critical and foundational, really.
Julie (29:10):
Yeah. Well, I love it as a segue to, and I looked at books, so I know you, it's one of those things I probably wouldn't have asked you about, but it's in the book and I think it tells... What you've just talked about, about relationship, having good judgment and also being a storyteller is really key because after law school, your biggest holy shit moment, which is what I'm sure you felt was the thing that you didn't want to talk to people and I remember you revealing it to me when we first met. So it isn't you were hiding from it, but I know it's something that you carried with you as a big weight on your back and the way that, I never really dug into because it didn't matter to me because I know who you are, but the story that you have, and I'll let you just tell the story about working for this law firm and sort of the situation that occurred with, I think it was with Pollo Loco, wasn't it?
Michael (30:12):
Right.
Julie (30:16):
It obviously didn't end well, but the way that it ended, it didn't end well in terms of, I think the little picture.
Michael (30:24):
At the moment.
Julie (30:25):
Right, the little picture. The big picture it did, because I even think that what the judge had said after the fact is so... You ended up in a situation and in the moment it didn't feel good or look good, but anybody who looked deeper would understand that actually you were such a good, honest person and that that moment in time, for me, explains so much about your willingness and eagerness to reach out. I always say, when you started MediaLink, it was like the land of misfit toys and I was one of your misfit toys by the way, so I can say this with honesty. But I think you do that because you see talent where people have decided that there's a flaw and we all have flaws, some of our flaws are just more overt and bigger, but you see the goodness and the potential and you use it to your advantage. I mean, you kind of get it on the cheap, right? But anyway, tell the story.
Michael (31:25):
Listen, I've experienced my own, so it's always easier. But I'm happy to say this and I'm proud to say this. Yes, my own experience refined that emotion or that base for me, but that's always who I was.
Julie (31:39):
I believe that.
Michael (31:42):
The good, the bad and the ugly is I didn't change my way or my view based on my experience, but it brought it into focus for me and realized that I had to apply what I generally would do for others, for myself.
Julie (31:54):
Yeah.
Michael (31:58):
That's the issue. And I'll tell you this, I'll put it in the context of a TV show. There's many TV series that you've liked or I've liked, or anybody will like and if you look at the concept of run of the show, do you judge a TV show by any particular episode or do you judge it by all the episodes?
Julie (32:23):
That's right. The whole series.
Michael (32:26):
Excuse me, the run of the series. I used Seinfeld earlier, but there were certain episodes of Seinfeld that stick out to me. There were some that probably weren't so good, but the run of the show, in fact, we're watching something on Netflix right now, we're in season four. We loved the first three seasons. Season four is not quite as good and Ronnie turned to me the other day and said, "Are you going to stop watching?" and I said, "No, no, no, we're going to finish it. A couple more episodes." It refreshed in my mind how I look at life. You don't look at life as that one episode, you look at life as the run of the show. Where I was fortunate, was the run of the show for me was pretty good. I had a bad episode, but that bad episode didn't make my life a bad show. It just meant I had a bad episode and it was a very bad episode for me because it demonstrated the lack of what I pride myself on, which is good judgment and I didn't exercise good judgment.
And like what you teach your children or people in business, you have a consequence for making bad decisions, and you have to carry that with you because life doesn't allow you to rewind the tape. If you could, life would be different. It's what I say about golf. I wish golf was 12 holes and one out of two. I'd be a much better golf, if it was one out of two. You don't get a chance to do that. You don't get a Mulligan in life.
Julie (33:55):
Right.
Michael (33:56):
Unfortunately. You may get a second chance. I think we're in a market and a world today where second chances become more difficult because social media and things of that sort makes second chances much more difficult in this environment. And people are being what I hope people are not, which is too damn judgmental without knowing the facts and without knowing the circumstances. So that's what I'd love to say about that. The run of the show, the circumstances. If I stub my toe by myself, or if you step on my toe and hurt it, at the end of the day, my toe still hurts. Again, my lack of being judgmental has always been, and Julie, you know this firsthand because we've lived through this together, I look at somebody and say, "Again, I'm not going to judge you by this or that, I'm going to look at the whole person. I'm going to look at the whole story." But I've always been someone who does not judge people by the circumstance they're in. I judge people by how they deal with it.
Julie (35:10):
Yep.
Michael (35:10):
Because you can be in a circumstance for a whole host of reasons, the idea of stubbing your toe, or someone hurting your, it doesn't matter, you've got a bad toe now, what are you going to do about it? Doesn't matter if I did it myself, or if you did it to me, I now have to deal with it. I have to take that next step, if you will. And how do you do that? Because people end up in circumstances, as I say, for a whole host of reasons, sometimes their own fault, sometimes extraneous circumstances, but what the hell do you do when you're in that moment? How do you deal with it? How do you conduct yourself? Does that make sense?
Julie (35:43):
It totally make sense and I think what you're saying is, what I liked about how it was written in the book, the whole episode and we won't go through the whole thing. I mean, look, at the end of the day, just so people have an understanding, it was '95. I want to read just a piece of what the superior court judge... Yes, you were found guilty, but what I love is how he decided. He says, "He ruled that your motive in taking money was not personal greed, but a desire to keep El Pollo Loco alive." So you won leniency when you reached an agreement with the prosecutors, et cetera.
And I think that tells a story, is that it's like, yes, it's a judgment call, but you were doing it out of what you thought was in the best interest of your client. You were trying to be helpful to your client, not do anything better for yourself. I thought that that was a really great lesson learned in that even a judge whose job it is to obviously render judgment the way that we're talking about, even though he didn't know you, he was able to look at not just the one incident, but look at the picture as a whole.
My question to you is this kind of as a major holy shit moment, how did that change? When you pivoted then out of that and kind of got started on sort of this new path and what eventually turned into MediaLink, how did you pull yourself up from that? I think that that's a really great lesson for people to hear, because that can feel devastating, I know it can. We've all had our versions of it. What I liked about it was that the judge was able to see, much like you were just talking about, he was able to see beyond the specific of the law and see that your intent was actually good. It didn't make [crosstalk 00:37:39].
Michael (37:42):
Just so we don't keep it so mysterious, it wasn't something that I did where I took something and put it in my own pocket and went off to Brazil. It was Peter and Paul, but Peter and Paul were related, so just not to make it sound worse than it was. It was bad enough, but I don't have to make it of worse. But the truth is, yeah that was important to me because it was important to me that the judgment that I made was wrong, but it was for the right reason. That's what helped me, but look, the how do you do it? And I will refer back to Frenemies, because one of the discomforts, and this is a very personal part of this story and the last chapter of Frenemies, I'm happy to say the title of it was something that was a quote from me, where it was called No Rear-view Mirror.
And the reason for that was at that moment in time that I was referring to, I said, "It was the first time in 25 years that I didn't feel like I had a rear-view mirror. I was looking forward, not behind me." Because the truth is Julie, whilst this is never a comfortable conversation for me to have, it's way more comfortable now than it ever was. And the truth is the liberation or the liberating feeling one gets when whatever their skeleton or whatever that baggage that you carry around as a person, becomes known, it's easier to address. So where it's really helped me and in a corresponding way allowed me to help others even more, especially in the moment we're in.
Julie (44:05):
I think it's super helpful. And it's one, I feel the same with too, where people will say things, and, I was 35. We all have our piece, right? And I remember, I was before, I was just at the coming of the digital age for mine, but my stuff popped up all over the place too. And it was like, oh my God, is there nothing else to talk about? So you get it. But I think that, I love the fact that your personal story allowed you to go above and beyond. But look, we could talk for hours and hours because you've got the best stories on the planet. There's no doubt about it.
Tell me this. So now that you, for the world to know, you're still a part of Media Link, but you sold it. You're wildly successful. What is it that you are seeing, or what is your big picture advice now, given the world where it is? I mean, we just talked about the Me Toos and we're talking about a lot of the inclusion and opportunities we have as a culture. But now that you're, you can kind of, and I know you don't really ever step away from your business, but now that you can have a different perspective I think from having sold the business and maybe feeling a little bit freer, what do you see for your kids and your grandkids? And what's the advice and kind of your life lesson? Because again, this is all about what do we learn and how do we inspire others to get beyond.
Michael (45:35):
Yeah. Look, Julie, it's four years that I sold my business. This week, actually it was four years.
Julie (45:43):
Oh, congratulations.
Michael (45:44):
Thank you. I'm proud to say that I'm more active than ever. I'm busier than ever. I've not lost any of my kind of vim and vigor against the backdrop of a industry that is massively under siege, in a good way. There is a funny stat that I talk about that we're at a moment in time where it seems like every word that's relevant in our business begins with the letter T. It's talent, it's transformation, it's transparency, it's trust, and it's technology. It's just funny that they all begin with the letter T. And being at the center of that in some way, shape or form, my Hamilton affection tells me that media link and I particularly have had the opportunity and the blessing of being in the room where it happens in this industry, it's much, if not more than anybody.
And I'm as motivated as ever. So I think we are at a moment in time where opportunity is plentiful. And those words with T define where we're going as an industry. And if I look at any opportunity for a legacy beyond what I've done, it's to continue being able to help people as they understand the need and the trust, the transparency, the technology, the importance of talent, and the technology and transformation changes. So I think it's so exciting. I have no less interest in my day job than I did four years ago. I let you in on a little secret, when I signed the documents to, and this is not self-aggrandizing, it's just honest. Because I think one is successful in life when they, as I like to say, know their own joke. If you know the joke that people are telling about you, then you control it, whatever that means, whatever that means, the joke.
And when I sat down with Duncan Painter, who's the CEO of Essential, my parent company. On the night we were the papers at a law firm in New York. I said, Duncan, you and I need a moment just one-on-one, can we go into one of those little huddle rooms over there? And I said, no re-trading the deals, the deal. I just, I want to have a kind of eye to eye one-on-one with you on something. He said, sure. And we sat down and I said, Duncan in the entertainment industry, there's a concept. And that concept is when you deal with talent, you have to treat them like talent. I said, please don't take this as me being self aggrandized, but I'm talent.
And as long as you understand that, and we operate like that, this is going to be a great relationship. And four years later, I'm happy to tell you it's been an amazing relationship. And he got the joke. He understood that I understood myself.
Julie (48:49):
Yeah.
Michael (48:49):
I'm not a diva. You know that Julie, I work as hard as anybody I know.
Julie (48:49):
Yes.
Michael (48:54):
I mean, I'm a hard working guy and a person. And so it's not talent, like, again, being a diva at all. But I roll a certain way. I know what I'm good at. I'm self-aware. And just let me do it my way, understanding full well that when I do go back in the other room and sign the paper, it says, you're my boss Duncan. I get it. And I've had for only, only really one other boss, other than my wife, basically my whole life. So I'm not sure I'm going to be good at feeling like I work for somebody because I'm an entrepreneur and a free spirit. But I can do that. And I'm happy to say four years later, it's worked. It's worked really well. It's worked brilliantly. We're a great team.
And it was important for me to be self-aware of exactly what I just said, that I'm used to rolling a certain way. Maybe I'm used to being treated a certain way. And I know that that works for me. So let me continue to do that because it's obviously worked for you Duncan. You're here buying my company. So don't scratch where it doesn't itch. Does that make sense?
Julie (50:09):
Totally makes sense. I love it. And I think that it's good for people to hear that again. The reason we do this podcast is I like people to hear the holy shit moments. And we didn't even scratch the surface on all of them. But as you do that, I think part of the holy shit moments can be that despite what might have been, something that held you back is that you still understand your self worth.
Michael (50:35):
It propelled me forward. It didn't hold me back. Because necessity being the mother of invention and my view that life isn't one episode, but a series of episodes, I wasn't going to let that episode take the show off the air. Wasn't going to happen.
Julie (50:50):
No.
Michael (50:52):
I stood there with somebody once at the beginning of that journey at a really dark moment, when the person said to me, oh, Michael, you're going to have to do this and this and this, and dah dah dah. I went, no, no, no, no, no. Slow down. This is true. I said, I don't know what you're used to dealing with. And then I stopped because I knew what this person was used to dealing with. So I paused and I said, well, actually I do know what you're used to dealing with, but I'm different. I said, because if you're telling me that my life, as I know it is over at 42 years old, that's not acceptable to me. So I'm not what you're used to. That's true.
Julie (51:36):
Yeah.
Michael (51:36):
I'm just not. Because failure wasn't an option for me. I mean, it's a reality, it's a reality, but it wasn't an option,
Julie (51:45):
But that self-worth carried you through that. And through your, just what you would just finish up with your selling of your organization, is understanding yourself and not letting anything take any of that away from you. Right?
Michael (51:58):
No.
Julie (51:58):
That's good.
Michael (51:59):
Julie, I know, I know we've spent a fair amount of time. I don't know what our timing is.
Julie (52:04):
Oh, we're good. This is it.
Michael (52:06):
You've gotten me to talk about things that I don't talk about very often. And that's because you're so good at what you do Julie.
Julie (52:13):
I don't know about that, but I think that it's, look, I think that your story is, I want people to read your book because we couldn't begin to get into all the really fun stories of like, carrying a Verizon at an AT&T cell phone, and then having Verizon client next to you, like what kind of phone is that? And then you throw or vice versa. It was one or the other.
Michael (52:13):
It was AT&T. AT&T.
Julie (52:34):
And you literally threw the other one on the ground. And they're like-
Michael (52:37):
I just told that story today on another call, Julie.
Julie (52:40):
You did? That is so funny.
Michael (52:42):
Literally told that story today.
Julie (52:44):
You have the [inaudible 00:52:45].
Michael (52:44):
Because I was describing my day yesterday, where I went from this computer to the one on my left on two different zooms three times during the day. And I was afraid of hitting mute and stop video on the wrong one. So it reminded me of that moment of grabbing the wrong phone. I'm a multi-tasker before multitasking was sheek.
Julie (53:03):
It was. And you do a better than anybody else. So thank you. I hope everybody goes and reads Frenemies. Really, it's a fast read and the best chapters are the ones. I honestly did a search in there for Cason. Those are the best chapters. I enjoyed the [inaudible 00:53:17] ones too, but yours are the best chapters of the book. Thank you for joining me and being here, it's been too long. Look forward to post pandemic-
Michael (53:25):
I love you Julie [inaudible 00:53:32], you're a good friend. And thank you for having interest in me.
Julie (53:31):
You're the best. Thank you so much.